The Stupak Amendment that was recently added would be a major shift in U.S. policy. It doesn't just extend the status quo, which says no federal funds can cover abortion. It would make insurance coverage for abortion virtually unavailable for millions of women in the new health insurance exchange, even if they're using their own money for coverage! It's discriminatory and just plain wrong.
Health care reform will expand access to quality, affordable health care for millions of women. It is absolutely crucial we pass real reform this year. But outlawing coverage for a legal, medical procedure hurts women. And it can't be in the bill.
We need to break the cycle of forcing religious views into legislation. Religious freedom is a fundamental American right.
JOHN DiDONATO
Annapolis
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pretty pointless isnt it? - 2010-01-14 18:37:03
Trying to convince abortionist that its wrong to kill a unborn child is like trying to convince ted bundy what he did was wrong. On second thought I think youd have better luck with ted. Even he has higher morals at least he ate what he killed.
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No ... not me - 2010-01-14 17:44:42
I posted once and simply read the attacks that came back. This time I was actually shocked and amused that after spending 2wks away from work, home, and PCs you all (mostly you Rogers) were still at it.
With no plans to add anything else I found my name mentioned specifically so I'll oblige on more comment out of netiquette but this is it ...
Read what I said ... the answer is there if you want it. IF we want to keep separation of Church and State we need to leave religion out of politics and law. Or simply call this county what it was and is now, a nation with out religion forcibly taken by Christians who were persecuted in their homeland that have setup a semblance of a faith-free government but the underlying tenants are Christian. Tell people that if that is what the majority of misnomered Americans want it and give everyone else an opportunity to decide if they want to stay here under those circumstances. Do I feel Christian leaders can set up a government and nation w/ out infusing their Christian beliefs? No I don't and I don't feel it's wrong. What is wrong is to shove this separation business and freedoms of this and that but then also try and use religion as a based to make, amend and repeal laws.
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lol - ??? - 2010-01-13 14:13:58
I agree with Jason, this is amazing how long this thread has been going. Lets not forget it is the constant replies (including Jasons) that have kept it alive.
After reading the reply Jason posted, I couldnt help myself, Jason can you tell us then by whom or what the laws of this country or any country for that matter should be based on? If we dont make law on someones idea of right and wrong, how should we go about writing law in any civilized society?
Who/what tells you that murder is wrong? After all, it isnt because of law that tells you it is wrong to murder someone, am I correct? Isnt it something in your being that tells you it is wrong to take the life of another? Or if no law stated so, would it be ok to murder? Would you go about murdering, why or why not?
Please explain by what source or thing should we have our, for lack of better terms, moral bearing set with
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Typo - 2010-01-13 12:25:16
Last sentence should read:
We should not start creating, repealing, and/or changing laws based on someone's or someones' idea of or what is moral because far too often people's idea of morality is based on their particular faith or spirituality.
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LOL! - 2010-01-13 12:23:30
This article is well over a month old and you all are still debating it. Wow!
One day people on both sides of the political tables will learn that morality and the law don't always have the same goals. And if we are to keep separation of church and state in this country it's best we keep things that way. Once we start creating, repealing, and/or changing laws based on someone's or someones' idea of or what is moral because far too often people's idea of morality is based on their particual faith or spirituality.
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just to set the record straight - 2010-01-12 23:50:32
1.I am catholic
2.I do not attend church
3.I do not oppose morning after pill just ABORTION
4. Fred one could argue an infant is not a child either so whats your point?
5. Like charles said just because its legal doesnt make it right. It was legal to execute jews in germany and it was legal to enslave african americans in the US.
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it is good - 2010-01-12 23:43:01
It is right and good to keep abortion legal.
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But is it right? - 2010-01-12 23:15:53
The morality of a practice does not depend on whether or not it is legal. You may wish to review Plessy v. Ferguson, the Nuremberg Laws, and the popular Roman practice of Christian execution by wild beast, generally.
What man has done, can be undone, and the laws that men pass, can be repealed or overturned. It happens all the time.
Is there any moral rule that protects "the potential child," as you call it?
And please don't cite "the woman's right to choose". I saw a teenager nibbling at her morning-after pills at the bus stop this morning.
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zygote eradication - 2010-01-12 22:57:16
it is legal for a woman to choose, if she wishes, to eliminate that which constitutes a potential child from her body. This is the law, and this law shall stand.
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Zygote season - 2010-01-12 21:01:19
Great! So its okay to kill..er...I mean, "terminate" them?
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Not a child - 2010-01-11 21:59:50
A zygote , fetus and an embryo are not the same as a child.
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Typo - 2010-01-11 21:27:59
Sorry, I meant, "Do non-religious people believe that the child IS alive prior to birth? I think the answer is "Of course!" but then what justifies terminating that life?"
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We need an index - 2010-01-11 08:44:37
Well, John describes himself as a Catholic at 2010-01-01 14:22:13 (a little below the post you quoted). But it seems this is the true basis for his objection:
"No matter how you try to sugar coat it and sweeten it up its taking the life of another human being. It is a violation of the childs Constitutional right of life and liberty." (2010-01-03 19:51:00)
So maybe my question is, do non-religious people believe that the child is not alive prior to birth? I think the answer is "Of course!" but then what justifies terminating that life?
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Scroll Down - 2010-01-10 17:39:47
Charles...John Farrell said in one of his posts that you don't need religion to know that abortion is wrong. And your sharp response was: "Ah yes, the atheist pro-life community. How committed they are! With all their protests outside of abortion clinics. Truly, they inspire respect!" So I guess I don't understand your question. He is seemly atheist. Seemingly opposes abortion.
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No offense, but - 2010-01-10 17:14:17
Salvatorre, with all due respect, I am looking for someone with a moral, non-religious objection to abortion, or in fact anyone who can explain the moral objection, if it exists.
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Regroup - 2010-01-09 23:31:52
Charles...first off, good and relevant question. I was pressed, early on in this thread, to identify if I was for or against public funding, abortion, etc. I said yes. That said, I really don't have a strong position on abortion. But, I don't object to abortion because I don't believe a fetus to be life, as we know it. And you and I could go back and forth on this for days and not change each other's minds. But that is the fundamental difference to the abortion debate. As to the religion discussion. Do I denigrate religion? Yes. All religion. Not just Christianity. My specific problem with Christianity is not that it is different than other religions, but because many in this county would like to see their Christian values legislated. And, frankly, I find that to be a terrifying idea. Is it dramatic to compare it to the Taliban? Absolutely. But the principles are the same. "We, as a religion, believe in something abstract and unproveable. And agree with us or not, we are going to make you follow our religious laws." That scares me. Now, Charles, I'll put the same question to you. You noticed, rightfully, that those who claim to be moral, yet do not have religion, seem to approve of abortion. Which you imply means that we lack the moral compass that religion would give us. Fair enough. But then why do so many people, who worship the New Testament God of love and forgiveness, support the death penalty as vocally as they do? According to Proverbs, god, himself, says that he'll take care of it in the end: "Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work." And you can find competing scriptures, but then doesn't that mean that your Bible is flawed? That it is ambiguous and gives conflicting instructions? Charles, being Christians does not give one an inherent moral beacon.
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What is the moral objection? - 2010-01-09 22:14:21
I think the subject has expanded from abortion to religion, generally. To all those who support public funding, claim their moral system permits them to force this funding on others, a question:
Under a non-religious code of morality, does anyone object to abortion, and if so, why?
It just seems to me that if, under this code of morality, people were free to think as they wished, there would inevitably be some who objected to abortion. I mean, all the comments in this thread denigrating religious people as "superstitious" or evolutionary throwback -- all of these comments have been posted by people who support public funding for abortion.
Have all of the so-called "free-thinkers" come to the same infallible conclusion? Why? It must be some tremendous reason that would persuade all of those fee-thinkers to think alike, but it seems the reason is secret, because they refuse to share it with us sheep.
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Fail? - 2010-01-09 10:58:47
Your the one who babbled against a statement made by me and yet ... CAN'T answer the questions given to defend your own position. Whether there from me, William, Snoopy, or Big Bird.
Paul .... how are old are you? Are you a ten year old playing with your computer and signing on with an alias and playing games with adults?
Please ... do me a favor and go play games with someone else.
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Fail! - 2010-01-09 00:20:54
Alright - a copy and paste from William Dembski, provocateur and prevaricator extraordinaire.
Couldn't you even bother to fix the line breaks before you posted? Seriously, now. Talk about dishonest.
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Paul - 2010-01-08 21:11:01
You just can't answer the question. Why not show some intellectual honesty and just admit that you can't.
It was a simple question that should have a simple answer ... if you know what it is of course.
Let's try another "set", feel free to pick one.
How do we account for the complex information-rich patterns in biological systems?
What is the source of that information?
The central problem for biology is information. Living things are not mere lumps of matter. Life is special, and what makes life special is the arrangement of its matter into very specific forms. In other words, what
makes life special is information.
Where did the information necessary for life
come from?
Where did the information necessary for the Cambrian explosion come from?
How can a blind material process generate the novel
information of biological systems?
Feel free to comment on any of these since the first question I asked is not "intelligent" enough.
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post hoc, ergo propter hoc - 2010-01-08 20:52:46
Holding my tongue a bit here - I tend to find the illogical daft and a bit annoying. Might I suggest studying a bit of logic, and perhaps avoiding the customary foolishness associated with the usual religionist arguments?
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/post-hoc.html
For the silly "chicken and egg" scenarios, one might investigate fallacy number 34 - post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
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Get over yourself - 2010-01-08 20:47:03
"Abortion is a medical procedure. It is legal. Get over it."
There are plenty of interesting scientific procedures for killing people. Ask the Nazis, who also had the foresight to legalize their genocide beforehand. If the law is the basis for your morality, it (your morality) will not last long.
So you passed a law. Good for you. Maybe now it is time to repeal it and enact a new one.
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Paul - 2010-01-08 18:33:39
That's what I thought ... you have no idea, so you do what most "well read" people do and attack the question.
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The Bible - 2010-01-08 18:16:41
"ramblings from men to fool the masses" - excellent description of the bible, Mr. Rogers. (Do you have the tattoos and the cardigan as well?)
Your "chicken and egg" arguments are specious (if not dishonest) at best. Please come back when you have something substantial to contribute.
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Gee willikers Paul - 2010-01-08 18:10:40
...since you are so "well read, and the rest of us are not. I have a question for you: what came first, the plant or the insect? Since they both need each other to survive in the world, plants to feed to insect and the insect to pollinate the plant, this poses a very interesting question.
So .... which came first? How can they have existed one with out the other? Can you look up the Darwin writings and answer that for me? But, then again, since you never met him, well it never really existed and since his writings are so old, we can also presuppose that his writings are just ramblings from "men" to fool the masses, can't we?
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John - 2010-01-08 18:04:22
No I am not.
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Oy - short subject lines - 2010-01-08 17:40:43
Heaven for the climate, hell for the company.
But the well-read among you knew that already.
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Heaven for the climate, hell for th - 2010-01-08 17:37:45
And I'd rather go for the company. (Props to Samuel Langhorne Clemens for that commentary).
Sin begins and ends with belief. If one does not believe ... well, you do the math.
I must say that this evangelical Darwinist (for one) is trs amused by the wailing and gnashing in this thread. By all means, keep up the entertainment!
And to try to keep the thread on topic - abortion is a medical procedure. It is legal. Get over it. If the churches want to lobby for reversal of that position, fine. Tax them, and make them pay their fair share to be a participant in political discourse.
"I've never understood how God could expect His creatures to pick the one true religion by faith - it strikes me as a sloppy way to run a universe." (Another direct quote from a popular author - two Scooby Snacks for whoever names the source (author, book and character).
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R ROGERS - 2010-01-08 16:21:09
Are you free of sin?
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John - 2010-01-08 16:02:12
"If sinners are going to hell then were all going there."
John - did you read any of my posts at all? Was there something you didn't understand about what was said?
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On healthcare - 2010-01-08 13:43:57
Take into acount the way these politicians (both partys) have handled the banking industry, auto industry, wars, taxes ,national security,......... Do you realy want them in charge of your health?
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Religion - 2010-01-08 13:31:52
Well sal if your going to discus religion you should at least gain a common knowlege of their beliefs before telling people what they believe. Even people who go to church seem to have this belief that your going to hell if you sin. How many of them have actualy read the bible rather than have someone interpret it for them? If sinners are going to hell then were all going there.
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Gonna put the safety on - 2010-01-07 23:48:14
Matt...I started a rant about how you can't pick and choose what your tax dollars pay for. How I think the Iraqi invasion was a ridiculous distraction from our War on Terror, yet I still have to pay for it...and then I realized that, after two weeks, we've come a full circle. So, I need another topic. I'll still dive into the god stuff, but in a different context.
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MY TAX DOLLARS - 2010-01-07 18:40:37
First of all i do not agree with this bill! The government is taking over our health care and it will only help them forward thier own liberal agenda. As a tax payer i dont want my tax dollars to pay for abortions for a number of reasons but mostly becuase im a christian and its immoral, not to mention its MURDER. I believe life begins at conception, therefore, to abort a LIFE at any stage of a pregnancy is murder!
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Heaven or Hell - 2010-01-07 17:22:19
Since there are a few of you who do not Understand cristianity, yet try to tell others their own beliefes. Chistians/Basptist,catholics Believe that jesus died for our sins therefore we will not suffer in eternal hell. The promise of heaven is a Gift from god. Gift as in given you are not expected to return any favor nor earn it as it is given to you. You dont have to obey the 10 comandments you dont have to go to church. That being said there is no threat of hell lingering over your head if you dont be good. No on is and no one is expected to be perfect.
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You "wasn't" there, either - 2010-01-07 15:38:03
"In the end, one of us will be right and one of us would be wrong. If I am wrong, nothing lost"
If you are wrong, it'll be too late to get back all that time lost preaching. Oh well, right? "nothing lost"
I thought John the Baptist baptized Jesus. What movie played god's voice in the background?
How old was Moses when your lord spoke to him? 100? 400? 600?
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Bruce - 2010-01-07 14:06:09
Goodbye -----
Thanks for stopping by and chatting with us.
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a quote - 2010-01-07 13:49:16
For Pasquale... I posted this somewhere else but I think it summarizes your last post nicely. "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." -Ghandi
This is my last post on this thread... I think we've beat this to death. I wish all of you full and wonderful lives, regardless of your faith.
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Pasquale - 2010-01-07 13:42:05
What can I say - some have turned the grace of our God into a license for sin. But you didnt give proof that I asked for you simply used another fallacious argument and submitted that as proof.
Let me turn it around so you understand what I mean.
Lets say you go to the doctors and have an experience that is somewhat cruel and unusual lets say your wife or girlfriend go and are sexually abused while under anesthesia, would that cause you or her from going to another doctor? Lots of politicians and police officers have done some really terrible things, should we just abandon the idea of having a police force? If a burglar was at your window wouldnt you still call the police, despite the corrupt and criminal elements within?
We call these types of people who use the grace of our God as license for sin false teachers and wolves in sheeps clothing.
Yes they exist throughout the world again that doesnt discredit truth.
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Salvatorre - 2010-01-07 13:30:51
"So you're ALL right?"
No they are not right. The Lord is truth, He is the only way and He is the only one who is right. The others have it all wrong; for the Lord says "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to Father except through me."
All those other beliefs have what is called a works righteous salvation, the question is, how does one know when they have achieved the right amount of works in order to be justified?
They are wrong; they worship a god that is not. They believe in a god who they ultimately believe can be appeased by their works; revealing that they believe in themselves to be that god. How can their so called god be a god if he has to rely on humans for satisfaction?
I agree men use a lot of things to sway the masses; including false religion. The fact they do so gives no credence or proof that they are right. The creator God is alive and is seated on His throne; how do I know this because he isnt in the grave, it's emtpy. He has risen and is therefore alive. All the other religions, you can go a dig up their gods.
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Real Christians? - 2010-01-07 13:20:10
Would an authentic follower of Christ used the Bible to justify wars of colonization which resulted in the genocide of tens of millions of Native Americans? How about using the Bible to justify the enslavement of Africans and their descendents? And, what about right-wing evagelicals supporting a non-humanistic facist agenda, you know, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, John Hagee and the rest of that crew which is not much more than a huge doomsday cult. These folks may fervently read their Bibles but they don't have much in common with Christ.
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Nope - 2010-01-07 13:12:24
Rog...with all due respect, and I do mean that, I cannot believe that as a species, we have not moved beyond this kind of primitive superstition by now. And it is. Plus, Christians are CERTAIN that they are right. Muslims are CERTAIN that they are right. So are the Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, etc. And many of them tell me the same thing you do: believe or ELSE! So you're ALL right?
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Proving ... - 2010-01-07 12:52:26
once again of His loving, patient, kindness, toward an unruly and sinful peopla.
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Pasquale - 2010-01-07 12:50:51
"The Bible says all of those things are OK."
Can you show (in the bible) us where this is given the ok? Not where it mentions or talks about it, but where it actually gives approval, other than using your own preconceived notions to discredit it? Thank you.
Keep in mind that the things done are not necessarily approved of by God, that men do all sorts of things in their own passions and lusts. Also, consider what the Lord says: "The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent,"
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The Fear Factor - 2010-01-07 12:26:44
Many of the world's great religions have used fear to keep its adherents in line. Many Christian sects are no exception, though some are more forgiving then others. The fire and brimstone sects tend towards a view of God that is wrathful rather than loving, i.e., Yahweh the cruel and unforgiving God of the Old Testament which is largely the creation myth of a wandering desert tribe, the Isrealites. There is something transcendent and divine at work in the universe, but is is probably not an
all powerful diety existing beyond time and space and cause and effect that is pulling the strings. What about Jesus? He was a great Bodhisattva who incarnated here to take on evil karma created by barbarous human kind. He also created a path of sanity and compassion for those who could actually understand his teachings. Most Christian institutions have managed to pervert his teachings to their own slefish and ignorant purposes. Does anyone actually believe that Christ would have supported colonialism, slavery, constant war, unbridled greed via unchecked predatory capitalism. I don't think so, but the conservative churches think all of those things were or are just fine. The Bible says all of those things are OK.
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Sal - let me explain - 2010-01-07 12:12:43
"The "loving" god is coming to get me!"
Sal He is loving. Let me explain. Lets say someone brutally rapes or murders a dear member of your family or someone close to you, lets also assume that the criminal is caught and brought before a judge in Annapolis, lets also say (assume) the judge was a "loving" guy and in the end let that criminal go free. You would be outraged and rightly so how can he be a "loving" judge and let the criminal go unpunished? What about justice? What about your family or friend? You see because he is loving, he must punish that criminal; (he is loving and at the same time just) same way with God, if He lets criminals (those who break His law) and the unjust go free how can anyone say He is "loving". He must punish the law breaker.
In Gods case, He sent His own Son to pay for a crime that you/we committed. He is therefore just and "loving".
We must believe or else we will pay for our own crime in eternity for all eternity.
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In case I forgot to tell you the de - 2010-01-07 12:00:25
This is the bad news: that men have come into the world and have sinned (lawlessness) against an almighty, loving, righteous, and just God. Men have lied, cheated, stolen, committed adultery, committed fornication, wanted what the neighbor has (instead of being blessed by what they do have), blasphemed (using Gods name in an unholy-trite way), disobeyed their parents, and more importantly havent believed what God has revealed and done through His Son. Judgment remains on those who have not believed and the day of wrath is coming and is eternal. Even though the body dies, the soul lives on either in heaven or hell.
The good news: today is the day of salvation, light has come into the world and those that would believe on the Son for the payment and satisfaction of their sin debt owed to the creator God can be forgiven. Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, lived a perfect sinless life, was taken and beaten, spit on, shamed, and ultimately died. Three days later He arose from the dead (proving He is God incarnate), defeating death, now sitting at the right of the Father and will come again. So now when God looks at you He sees His Son, when He looks at His Son he sees the debt you could not ever pay. An exchange, the just for the unjust; death has no more sting for those who will repent and believe on the Son this moment.
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Ooooh Scarrry Stuff! - 2010-01-07 11:47:04
The "loving" god is coming to get me!
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Then ... - 2010-01-07 11:44:04
Sal and Bruce - I can't make you believe and if you would rather worship a volcano or a foul mouthed dead guy ... go your way ... in that great day, know this - that you have been warned of the coming judgment and you (at least up to your last post) have spurned a mighty, loving, righteous God and only you - only you will have to answer for your unbelief. Have a great day and may God save your souls.
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Oh - 2010-01-07 10:07:29
And by the way, I don't get your reasoning that it is just safer to believe in god just in case. So if I don't believe in god, I go to hell, which is ridiculous. But if I pretend to believe in god I will be rewarded in the afterlife? This is so primitive. No different than worshiping a volcano.
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That's Proof? - 2010-01-07 10:03:28
Rick...you just confirmed what I said. How do you know god said these things? Because a man wrote it down centuries after the fact. So basically a man is telling you what god said hundreds of years later.
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Ahh trust in the lord... - 2010-01-07 09:18:53
"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll to to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!" [George Carlin]
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Sal - 2010-01-07 08:51:04
How do you know, The Lord doesn't speak. You wasn't there for some of the times. When Jesus was baptized and came out of the water. The Lord said, "You are my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Yes, I know, the Lord did speak in English, its been translated for us). How about when the Lord spoke to Moses?
I know, you probably don't believe that happened either. You can continual to deny God all you want.
In the end, one of us will be right and one of us would be wrong. If I am wrong, nothing lost. If you are wrong, you will end up paying that price for eternity. A very heavy price to pay. Is it worth the risk?
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Look Who's Talking - 2010-01-07 08:22:17
Rog...the "Lord" doesn't "say" anything. A man does and then claims it is god's words.
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Bruce - 2010-01-07 07:53:15
"The real problem here is that we have yet to establish a common definition of "human life"."
That is an easy answer: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;", listen to what the Lord says. Let not our own faulty understanding twist and corrupt and make us fools.
Forget semantics and trust in the Lord.
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Sal - - 2010-01-07 07:48:10
"to throw the Christians a bone,"
Listen to what the Lord says, "The fool says there is no God".
"bone" - back at you!
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In all fairness - 2010-01-06 23:47:25
Now, to throw the Christians a bone, here is a conspiracy theory for you to gnaw on. And I agree with you. Mostly because I believe that ALL religions should be debunked equally: http://bit.ly/60QKo1
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Insurance coverage - 2010-01-06 23:42:57
So how much does an abortion cost that women need coverage for it, besides the life of a child? $500 or so? If the women had to pay for it out of pocket, maybe she would think twice about having an unwanted pregnancy in the future. I know I do not want my hard earned tax money paying for abortions. I mean murder.
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Thanks! - 2010-01-06 21:37:42
With which part do you disagree?
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Way to deduce - 2010-01-06 21:03:57
Quite the impressive use of the Scientific Method there, Charles.
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Is it a celocanth? - 2010-01-06 20:28:22
Well, when I see something wriggling about, I must say it seems animate to me. Unless it is not wriggling, but being pushed and twisted about.
So it is animate, yes, I would say "Alive".
Then to the ponderous question: is it human life, or animal? Or mineral or spirit? Or a celocanth? And using the same razor-sharp process of deduction I gained in all of the best universities, I would deduce, with Aristotle, that coming from a human, it is probably (not "certainly"!) a human life.
Where's the confusion?
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Human embryo - 2010-01-06 20:27:23
http://bit.ly/7QQyQX
While tiny as it is its still alive and its still a life.
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Not a zygote - 2010-01-06 20:22:10
Since abortion occurs when the child is in embryo or fetus stage not zygote. I'd suggest doing research before spreading your misinformation. If it where zygotes women would have abortions monthly.
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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root cause - 2010-01-06 16:23:08
The real problem here is that we have yet to establish a common definition of "human life".
Some think it starts as soon as an egg is fertilized, some think it starts at birth and a lot (myself included) think it starts somewhere in between. I've heard some say that even masturbation is murder.
Everyone has their own moral line, even among people of the same faith and of those with no faith (yes we have morals too)... but the law has to be the same for everyone so no matter where that line gets set, it won't align with everyone's morals.
As to the number of abortions... I don't think anyone LIKES abortion, or wants more of it...
One day the folks wasting their time harrassing people at abortion clinics will realize that the best way to prevent abortions is to prevent unwanted pregnancies from occurring.
I'm probably dreaming, those folks are too dense to realize that.
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Bruce Kibbey - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Excellent
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North - 2010-01-06 14:52:52
My compass is fine. Because I don't believe it is a life at that point. And we can go back and forth for days on this, but we'll never convince each other. How about this...if you saw someone about to kill a child, you would dive across the street to save them right? And if they are doing that right now at abortion clinics, why are you not screaming outside every day? Why are you not throwing bricks at the building? Why are you not physically restraining doctors from going inside? Why not spend your own money to take out full-page ad in the Capital? Or the Post? How many "babies" are you saving by writing sternly-worded posts on a newspaper message board? You don't sound very dedicated to me.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Re: Not Lives - 2010-01-06 14:35:50
Quote: "the word 'life" is the neuolinguistic fiction used by the hysterical." So Fred, how would you classify your existence if it isn't life?
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Mike Morgan - annapolis, md - Karma: Excellent
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not lives - 2010-01-06 13:20:13
Zygotes are removed, lives are not taken. the word 'life" is the neuolinguistic fiction used by the hysterical/
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Grow up, Sal - 2010-01-06 12:32:59
You know what's really staggering? 800,000 innocent lives aborted every year in our barbaric society. How does your little moral compass square that death toll, Sal?
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Nope - 2010-01-06 08:59:53
Mike, no I won't. And I have a problem with all religion, not just Christianity. And you have to be kidding me if you are telling me that the various Christian denominations have historically, up to the present, been rooted in morality. The number of people killed in the name of Christianity is staggering.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Hatred - 2010-01-06 08:21:14
Salvatorre, it sounds to me that as an apparent athiest, you have a real problem with christians. You're wrong in assuming that christianity is not based on morality. One day you'll have to answer to that "imaginary friend in the sky".
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Morality - 2010-01-05 22:51:44
Charles...you are implying that Christianity is the only source of morality, at least where abortion is concerned. Yet someone, who you assumed was an atheist (I don't know if you are right or not) shared your belief that abortion is wrong. YET, you scorned him. Why? Because he doesn't have an imaginary friend who lives in the sky threatening him with hell? I mean, if he shares your belief that abortion is wrong, why would you look down your nose at him? Let's be honest, Christianity has not exactly been a bastion of morality for the past two thousand years (witch burning, Inquisitions, slavery, segregation, child molestation), so wouldn't you ally with someone who shares your conviction regardless of his belief in a god?
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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A good question - 2010-01-05 22:01:09
What other religions or belief systems besides Christianity have a position against abortion? I really don't know, but if Salvatorre is right, there must be arguments from other religions or moralities against the practice.
Mostly what I hear is a deafening silence.
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Eye Roll - 2010-01-05 21:30:01
Yes, because Christians have the cornerstone on morality. What with the threat of hell hanging over their heads, they'd BETTER be good, because Santa is always watching. Or god, I mean.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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lalalalala - 2010-01-05 21:11:43
This board has fast become the most incredible compilation of insane ramblings and radical agenda pushing. Let us all simply put our fingers in our ears and sing "la la la la la I can't hear you la la la la la" until it is finally put to rest. Forget trying to find the worms, just throw the can in the recycling bin.
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Insider Info - Naptown, MD - Karma: Excellent
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The Atheist Pro-Life Crown - 2010-01-05 20:59:34
Ah yes, the atheist pro-life community. How committed they are! With all their protests outside of abortion clinics. Truly, they inspire respect!
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Straying away - 2010-01-05 19:17:44
Argue about religion all you want Its not gonna stop child murder from being wrong. If you need religion to tell you its wrong to take the life of a child you have bigger issues.
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Thank you Michael - 2010-01-05 12:53:08
Those willing to forgo or forget, will go to any length to ignore or lie about our founding.
Well said!
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Ah yes, the Danbury Baptists - 2010-01-05 12:05:59
I'm glad you brought up Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists; it's an important historical document, but it's also a personal letter with a specific context, and not a legal document.
Jefferson was reassuring the Danbury Baptists that the rival Congregationalists would not be the "official" religion of the government.
In fact the Jefferson "wall" is actually a limitation on federal power, not on religion itself. The "wall" metaphor dates not even to Jefferson but from Roger Williams (a Baptist minister), who argued that the wall was built to protect the garden; in other words, government existed to allow religion to thrive. If this sounds foreign to you, it's because the current understanding of the "wall" has been flipped 180 degrees.
It is also interesting to note that one year after the Jefferson's Danbury letter, he made a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians, pledging money to build them a Catholic Church and to support their priests all from federal funds! I guess Jefferson's "wall of separation" wasn't as high as you think it was.
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Michael Schearer - Glen Burnie, MD - Karma: Neutral
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The Constitution - 2010-01-05 11:32:39
Salvatore has it exactly right with regard to the construction of the Constitution and the intent of he fouding fathers who created it. The founders were in fact "Deists" who believed in rational thought far more than reigious ideology, although they acknowedged that there is transcendent reality that supersedes human existence. Thank God for that because if they came at writing the Constitution as a religiously based document we might be living under a Christian version of Sharia law. The fathers had enough foresight and wisdom to know that writing such an important document adhering to a reigious belief system that itself is very diverse, would have been a huge mistake. After all Christianity runs the gamet from Rastafarians, Unitarians, Roman Catholics, to Evangelicals, all of which have many doctrinal differences. The founders did it right giving all mof freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion.
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Pasquale Zamzino - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Good
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Shoehorning - 2010-01-05 09:30:23
Rog...again, no mention of god in the Constitution, a document that you sweepingly said was "radically influenced by the bible." And the word "religion" is mentioned only three times, and in strictly exclusionary terms. So how, again, are we a religious nation? Because our founders supposedly had religion? George Washington had wooden teeth. Are we a nation of people with wooden teeth? Thomas Jefferson made an interpretation of the 1st Amendment to his January 1st, 1802 letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association calling it a "wall of separation between church and State." Madison had also written that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." There existed little controversy about this interpretation from our Founding Fathers.
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New Year's resolutions: - 2010-01-05 09:24:56
I guess it's safe to assume that no one here made a resolution to limit their comments on the "Article hijacked by anti-abortionists", now renamed to "Article hijacked by believers that only those with faith in god can be moral". LOL!
3 more days and this article will be a month old!
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K C - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Another thing Sal - - 2010-01-05 08:14:59
There is no argument that this country is an anomaly on the radar of history. It is one of the most, if not the most, successful instances of personal liberty and freedom, it is the most prosperous throughout all the various classes of people. Our poor in this country are actually richer than most of the rest of the world. Why do you think that is? Do you think because it is of efforts by yourself alone? Do you think that such a nation could have existed without the providential involvement of a creator God? Is it a coincidence that as we as nation turn our back on the creator God, that we are experiencing a very real downturn? Across the board this once great nation is in moral chaos, economic bankruptcy, decay and a very real threat of losing our liberty and freedom. Why is that Sal?
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Sal - - 2010-01-05 08:14:06
I am by no means saying ALL the founders, individually, were believers or not. How could I even know such things? But, we do have the mountainous abundance of their writings and speeches recorded to prove that the bible and Christianity influenced these men in their design of the Constitution. Have you ever taken a tour of DC and examined the many, many, many monuments and statues that prove the influence of the Christian faith? Have you ever read the floor debates that took place during the construction of the new republic? Have you looked and examined the Constitution of each of the 50 states and how every single one makes notable mention of God? Or are you intent with listening to those who are attempting to re-write our history? Our public education system and many scholars are attempting to rewrite everything and you are following along with their rhetoric? If what I say, even though proven true outside myself and what I say, is rhetoric, then what do you call what you are doing while listening to the people who are trying to rewrite history? There is a very real threat to undermine what has been for many years and it is undeniable that nonbelievers are in the halls of academia looking for ways to undermine the past.
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Try doing some research - 2010-01-05 08:04:59
Salvatorre, here is some research for you. Consider the following quotes from Ben Franklin, generally regarded as one of the least religious of the founders.
"I've lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing Proofs I see of this Truth That God governs in the Affairs of Men."
Later on in the same speech: "I therefore beg leave to move -- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service."
Your all caps emphasize is just plain wrong, as evidence by the actual research you propose everyone else do. If one were to actually do research one would find that tour statement about the religious nature (or lack thereof) of the founders is grossly over-generalized. Sure, some of them were so-called Deists, but others were clergy and deeply religious--among them George Washington and John Adams, our first two presidents. To lump them all into a group as "not men of God" is simply historically inaccurate.
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Michael Schearer - Glen Burnie, MD - Karma: Neutral
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Sal - 2010-01-05 07:58:45
From what I have read during the years, I have to disagree with you. Just because you post the forefathers were not men of God, makes you correct? Go visit wiki and other sites that are readily available with the internet and you will find otherwise. Read about Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, George Washington, Samuel Adams (deacon in his church), just to name a few.
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Rick M - Laurel, Md - Karma: Excellent
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Try doing some research - 2010-01-04 23:01:38
Charles...I said 'Most," not all, "most." And by most, I mean the vast majority were not men of religion. And by the way, Charles, find me the word "Creator" or "God" or "Christianity" just ONCE in the constitution. Not there! Why, because (in call caps for dramatic emphasis) THE FOUNDING FATHERS WERE NOT MEN OF GOD! And even if they were, which they most certainly were not, the mere fact that they had religion would have no bearing on the product that they put forth. For example, if men who are Christians found a country, it does not make this a Christian Country. Because, by that logic, we would be a country of men. We would be a country of white, men. We would be a country of wealthy men. We would be a country of white, wealthy, men who live on the Atlantic seaboard. See where I'm going with this? The religious right in this country stretch the truth until it starts to tear in order to make a religious connection with America's birth. And it just isn't there.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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A real fairy tale - 2010-01-04 22:33:54
Wasn't Madison a fairly religious man? I know I read that somewhere. I think he studied for the seminary...but yeah, that was probably all a fake. He probably renounced all that stuff later. In secret.
And all this "Creator" talk was probably just Masonic code. And Chales Carroll himself wasn't interested in religion, he just made out like he was to advance in politics...in the virulently..anti-Catholic politics.
Yeah, Gordon Woods is probably right. None of the founders were influenced by the strong Puritan and Quaker influences in the country. They just hung out together and laughed at the superstitions of the bitter, grasping people whom it was their unhappy burden to lead.
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Rhetoric - 2010-01-04 21:36:48
Rog...unfortunately, you are falling victim to the spewers of rhetoric who hold positions of power in this country's political-religious base. The U.S. Constitution was in no way influenced by God or Christianity. In fact, Gordon Wood, a major interpreter of US History said this: "It is one of the striking facts of American history that the American Revolution was led by men who were not very religious. At the best the Founding Fathers only passively believed in organized Christianity and at worst they scorned and ridiculed it. When asked why the Constitution did not mention God, Alexander Hamilton is said to have answered, 'We forgot.'" In fact, most of the founding fathers were not Christians, but Deists, who believe that 1. God is not present in our daily lives and 2. That the Bible is nonsense. Don't believe me? Look it up. Nowhere is religion mentioned in the constitution except in EXCLUSIONARY terms. The Founding Fathers were influenced by European Enlightenment which scoffed at religion. So, if you have religion, good for you. But don't inflict it on everyone else because you are so damned sure that is what everyone else needs. Didn't work for the Taliban either.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Sal - - 2010-01-04 20:38:33
But, our government and the constitution is (was) based on it ... now it is falling apart due to views like yours. Those people who want nothing to do with the creator God can't possibly be interested in a document that was radically influenced by the bible.
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Serious Comparison - 2010-01-04 18:22:43
No, I think that the Constitution, a relatively recent document, is just swell. I think that the Old Testament, written during the Bronze Age, is a fairy tale. That's just my personal opinion, and if you are into the Bible, that's great. More power to you. It's just not wise to base a government on it.
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Our Forefathers - 2010-01-04 15:18:08
One of principals this country was founded on, was the separation of church and state. So that we could be free to worship the religion of our own choosing and not the church of England. Like our mother county wanted. If you study the backgrounds of our forefathers, most were deeply devoted Christians (no they were not perfect) and while they did believe in God. They didn't believe the government had any right in choosing that matter.
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R Marshall - Laurel, Md - Karma: Excellent
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Sal - - 2010-01-04 13:34:16
Rog is fine thatnks for asking.
"The reason why is because it was written in and for a different time."
I get the feeling you think the same way about the constitution as well.
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Our so-called "separation of church - 2010-01-04 12:58:47
Please find for me the "separation of church and state" in the Constitution. Then try the Bill of Rights. All 27 amendments! Then keep looking. Then look again. Then come back and acknowledge that it's not there.
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Michael Schearer - Glen Burnie, MD - Karma: Neutral
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And God Spake - 2010-01-04 12:37:10
Rog, can I call you Rog? Folks like you are the reason that I am such a supporter of a complete separation between church and state. I don't care what Romans says. Or Ecclesiastes. Or Psalms. And I certainly don't want governmental decisions being based on what they say. If you want to start cherrypicking what is and is not permitted in scripture let's get to it. Because the Bible has supported slavery, murder, and genocide in various Old Testament passages. The reason why is because it was written in and for a different time.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Sal - - 2010-01-04 11:24:52
Actually, Sal, can I call you Sal? There is a big difference in your comparison. The act of capital punishment and murder are complete opposites. The act of killing is and has always been the unjust taking of an innocent life. The act of capital punishment is meted out by a jury of peers and is set forth by the government, who has the explicit right to carry out this duty as given by God in Romans 13.
Sal, have you ever hated someone? Well, then you may be guilty of murder yourself. You see, when Jesus was carrying out His earthly ministry, He defined murder as an act of the heart. (A heart condition) He said that if you so much as hate your brother, then you are in effect guilty of murder. That is the condition and that is the rule.
For a judge to carry out a punishment due to a crime is not the same thing as hatred and the innocent taking of a life. That judge is acting in his capacity, ordained by God, to punish those committing an offense on behalf of God. Government has a role in every society, to secure, protect and defend God given rights. Even if those people and the government reject the creator God, they will be held accountable for this duty.
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Salvatore - 2010-01-04 01:02:56
I never once said anything about the 10 comandments or religion having an effect on my disgust with the murdering of children. The diference between executing a convicted murderer and killing an innocent child is just that. The murderer Kills therfore deserves to be killed while an innocent child is just that INNOCENT. Therefor deserves its constitutional right to life and liberty. I did state unless the mothers life was at risk or she was raped. Is shes poor theres plenty of more fortunate people who adopt. Theres plenty or single mothers. So that leaves Crackheads :) I'll just leave that part alone so nick wont delete this.
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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The Ten Suggestions - 2010-01-03 22:28:42
John is kind of the poster child for an emotionally-driven Christian conservative. Opposes abortion, in principle, but noooo problem with capital punishment. So I'm wondering where the loophole is in those there Ten Commandments. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Thou shalt not kill. Nope. No wiggle room there. And lest you brand me as (shudder) a Liberal, let me point out that I have no problem with the death penalty. Just as I have no problem with abortion, which means that I am not a hypocrite like some people whose names rhyme with "Yon." Plus, I am wondering exactly how many of the people who so vehemently oppose abortion are foster parents, or have adopted children for reasons other than infertility. Seems that once the baby is born, the religious right are pretty much done with them. After all, they are innocent children and are not to blame if their mother is poor, or unmarried, or a rape victim, or a crack addict. Nope. Christian Charity seems to end at home right there.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Agonizing Quality of Life Decisions - 2010-01-03 22:02:19
"The majority agonize over the decision due to the quality of life they are unable to provide THEMSELVES and in turn,THAT child - not the dollar signs" --Tyler
A telling comment, and probably reflective of why most abortions are performed: because decisions matter, there are consequences to our actions, and after all, a baby is Soo inconvenient. If Society supports "getting rid of It," why not?
Why not agonize before you conceive, and not only just after?
Except, as you well know, there is no agonizing, only easy decisions, and an industry (not entirely staffed by altruistic people) ready and willing to help you make that easy decision.
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Tyler - 2010-01-03 19:51:00
"Adoption is a stressful, long, tedious and brutially expensive process."
So you're suggesting abortion is stress free, quick, easy, cheap(especialy after you make taxpayers foot the bill).
Like i said Easier to spent $500 now instead of taking responsability.
No matter how you try to sugar coat it and sweeten it up its taking the life of another human being. It is a violation of the childs Constitutional right of life and liberty.
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Death penalty - 2010-01-03 19:38:49
The death penalty itself is pretty cheap. Cynides what a few bucks you can get a case of .357 Mag for $35 bucks thats good for 50 executions. I tell you what I'm willing to donate $35 so support 50 executions but those who oppose it can pay the legal fees themselves.
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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related? - 2010-01-03 09:35:46
They both kill - so can any number of things on my desk at the moment.
No one is asking you to pay for my personal arsenal. And the death penalty is often times more expensive to taxpayers than a life sentence due to the legal process inmates use to prolong their lives.
The "appeal" of abortion? There is nothing appealing about it. Yes, there are people out there who think very little of using it as birth control. The majority agonize over the decision due to the quality of life they are unable to provide themselves and in turn,that child - not the dollar signs flying out of their paycheck for 18 years, as you assume. And yes, they could opt for adoption, but there are a number of reasons why people feel that isn't the best decision for them. Adoption is a stressful, long, tedious and brutially expensive process.
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Tyler Johnson - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Excellent
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Taking lives - 2010-01-02 23:10:16
I'd like to hear anybody deny that abortion is, in fact, the taking of a life. How many Discovery channel episodes does one have to watch?
If it is a Life, then I think the pro-choice community has a real problem. Considering how they agonize over the destruction of a tree, or a rare sort of bird.
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Relation - 2010-01-02 16:38:52
They both take lives. There both legal. Both controversial. As for the taxpayers paying for the death penalty its actualy cheaper to kill them than it is to feed, clothe and house them. I mean isnt that the appeal of an abortion $500 now instead of 18+ years of care?
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Farrell - 2010-01-02 14:29:20
The two are totally unrelated.
As for the AR15 - I'm not a fan of Bush, but I do love mine.
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Tyler Johnson - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Excellent
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Just because its legal - 2010-01-02 12:25:19
So If taxpayers should pay for abortions solely on the grounds that its legal. Does that mean taxpayers should fund my new AR15 and Barrett 82A1/M107 just because its legal to own them. (thank god for George Bush letting that ban end)
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Censorship - 2010-01-02 00:17:01
Oh, and by the by, censorship refers to an act of government. The Capital can take out any comment that they want without cause. It's their site, their right. But I am a solid defendant of the First Amendment, including opinions I don't like. I was being ironic in my previous posts. Apparently.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Tit for tat - 2010-01-02 00:09:39
Charles...You asked me if I believed public monies...abortion etc. I answered, yes, I believed. Then I asked YOU did you think that people who object to their tax monies being spent on projects or policies condoned by the government should have recourse...to wit (without debating the actual morality of the topics) capital punishment and the Iraq invasion. You never answered. So, I have been honest, you weaseled. Oh. And by the way, I'll give you a a freebie since you are being intellectually dishonest. Abortion, despite its debate, and despite six of nine Supreme Court Justices being Catholic, is legal. THAT is why tax money should be spent on abortions by women who want them. I think that the National Endowment for the Arts is stupid and idiotic. But guess, what. It's been legislated that performance artists get money. I've got no say in it, unless I can convince my representative to change the allocation. Charles, you are a dishonest debater. Answer my question earlier in my post or shut up.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Delicate - 2010-01-01 22:08:27
Salvatorre, John's description is accurate. I must have asked you seven times WHY the public (including pro-lifers) should fund abortions, and you failed or refused to answer. John's not commenting on your integrity, just your responsiveness.
Do you really think such a comment should be censored?
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Cheese with your whine? - 2010-01-01 19:29:44
John..I haven't dodged any questions. I was asked one. Do I believe that tax money should be used to fund abortions (in the form of the healthcare package). I said yes. What else do you want? I find your questioning of my integrity offensive and I believe that Nick should censor you. I think everyone should be censored! Censor, censor, censor! I will mention that to Nick next time we go to lunch together. It's his turn to pay, too.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Offensive Comments - 2010-01-01 19:14:50
If you think a comment is offensive - report it! Click "Report Abuse." We're not going to delete a comment just because you don't like it, but we do seriously consider every comment that is reported. We're not sitting here 24 hours a day reading comments as they come in - nor do we have the time to read all of every comment.
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Nick Lundskow - Annapolis, MD Staff
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Rational - 2010-01-01 15:35:23
Killing innocent children while freeing convicted murderers IS NOT RATIONAL fred
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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ofensive comments - 2010-01-01 14:22:13
As a catholic I find freds coment suggesting catholics are pedophiles offensive. Why does the capitol not censor this? Why is it petunia can cry that im ultre conservitive just because I oppose taking the life of a child? Why does salvatore accuse charles of avoiding his questions when he himself is dodgeing questions? (Id be happy to answere but the capital will censor it)Religous or not aside from a few cases where the mothers life is in danger or maybe a rape, one cannot justify taking the life of a child simply due to the effect it may have on your career. Which is the case for the majority of abortions.
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Can't explain yourself? - 2009-12-30 21:53:51
Readers will search the comments below in vain for the reasons you support public funding of abortions, other than, you do. Hah!
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Chuck - 2009-12-29 23:41:33
Charles...you play word games. You answered nothing and, at the risk of being grouped with Freddie, you are now boring. You do not debate. You drone. You asked me a direct question, I gave you a direct answer. In return, I asked you a direct question, thinking that you would be a man and give a straightforward answer, and you dithered. I have no problem with rationally debating people who disagree with me. But you are dishonest in your discourse. You, sir, are a little man. And I'm done with you.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Explain your outrage - 2009-12-29 21:24:49
Salvatorre, my response (on religious grounds) is below, at 2009-12-28 21:50:35. That's the Catholic position, as best I understand it.
You then asked at 2009-12-27 21:11:52 for
"the options [ ] for those taxpayers who feel a moral outrage in other ways that their tax dollars are spent? Again, the moral outrage doesn't end at abortion."
You then criticized every attempt made to answer that question, while declining to articulate any moral position of your own, other than that you are outraged at the way your money is spent.
If you can articulate your "moral objection" then do so. The article above says its an OUTRAGE to ban public funding for abortion. Can you explain why?
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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You have a point...so wear a hat - 2009-12-29 11:06:02
Charles...no, you didn't answer the question. Not in the least because you are applying YOUR personal rationalizations to both situations as if that was the determining factor for the nation. What we're talking about are INDIVIDUAL objections on religious or moral grounds. It doesn't matter how YOU feel about the Iraq invasion or capital punishment, the point is that SOME people object to those actions and therefore object to their tax money being used. So again, what about them? If those people have a moral OR religious outrage to THOSE situations, should their tax money be used?
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Attention! - 2009-12-29 09:17:52
I would like to draw your attention to a great article that really says what I think is a big problem. Check it out for yourself and get back to us with any thoughts.
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/schiff/2009/1223.html
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Comment removed by HometownAnnapolis staff. - 2009-12-28 23:59:00
Staff message: Why is this comment hidden?
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Human Life? Oh no! - 2009-12-28 23:56:35
Maybe in your answer you can touch on whether you believe it is, in fact, human life that is terminated in abortion. That is the substance of the matter (no pun intended) and what Fred Shubbie and I are approaching.
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Don't be a cry baby, Salvatorre - 2009-12-28 23:53:02
I've answered about six of your questions, and you still haven't answered my question of why it is morally defensible to force the pro-life community to pay for abortions. Because you have to pay for other things? Is that a moral reason? (Ans. No.).
Nevertheless, to show my incredible patience, I'll answer another one of your superficial questions: How is funding abortions different from funding the Iraq war, assuming one has moral objections to both?
Answer: One is a routine procedure carried out thousands of time against an innocent human life, and the other was a political action carried out by a nation against an enemy believed to have WMDs.
Does that qualify as an answer, professor?
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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One Way Street - 2009-12-28 23:23:21
Charles...you seem to demand answers without returning the favor. I've had a perfectly valid question for you dangling out there for a while now, and you've shamelessly dodged it. So here it is again: Beyond the scope of abortion, what is your position on taxes being used to fund programs/actions that certain taxpayers find objectionable for moral OR religious reasons? Part 2...Why is the abortion issue different than any of the other objections that taxpayers might have (e.g. - the invasion of Iraq)? So play Lawyer-ball if you want, or man up and answer the question.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Help is here Carol - 2009-12-28 23:21:40
The difference ? One is entering its third year of life and the other was born before full gestation. If there is anything else you need help with I am open and available.
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Fred Shubbie - annapolis , md - Karma: Terrible
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You walked into that one - 2009-12-28 23:09:59
How is a "viable preemie" different than, say, a 2-day old child, Fred? I am most anxious to hear your rational, fact-based answer.
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Religion - 2009-12-28 22:19:54
This thread is boring and repetitive. Religion has absolutely no basis in fact and the anti-freedom of choicers arguments are based on neuro-linguistical fictions. An infant, a child, a blastocyst , undifferentiated human stem cells, viable preemie, and fully developed human-being are seen as interchangeable when in fact there are NOT.
Religious groups need to try a different approach if they wish to get involved in a serious discussion with us rationals.
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Death penalty v. Abortion - 2009-12-28 21:50:35
Salvatorre, there is debate over the meaning of the Sixth Commandment (kill vs. murder). See http://bit.ly/7Il9q6. The objection of the Catholic Church to capital punishment seems to be based more on the dignity of human life, than on No. 6: http://bit.ly/756Dun
I can't give you a simple answer, but as someone who rejects absolutes, I think you may accept it. I also think you can appreciate how people would view the death of hardened criminals and the unborn, differently, without rejecting them as simple-minded idiots, or hypocrites.
In fact, I find it hard to believe that you could peep in the door at St. Mary's during Christmas Mass (or any other area church, for that matter) and still find people worthy of hatred, praying there.
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Hatred of Religion - 2009-12-28 13:40:33
Meanwhile, the secular crowd has little time to worry about pedophilic child-raping teachers.
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Debate - 2009-12-28 13:16:07
Mike...point taken.
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Comment removed by HometownAnnapolis staff. - 2009-12-28 12:57:09
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Comment removed by HometownAnnapolis staff. - 2009-12-28 12:53:49
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Re: Quickdraw - 2009-12-28 10:46:05
While I have to admit I do agree with many of your (political) thoughts, I think you could make your point without the sarcasm and trying to demean others.
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Mike Morgan - annapolis, md - Karma: Excellent
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Quickdraw - 2009-12-28 09:55:33
Mike...why would you say that I'm "quick" to make that assessment? I've thought that for years. And I stand by it. Anyone who signs up for any group's entire package of thought has surrendered their own ability to form their own opinions. That goes for political leaning, religion, etc.
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Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Salvatorre - 2009-12-28 09:49:50
Wow...You're pretty quick to make such bold and sarcastic generalized statements..."spoon-fed", "narrow-minded", "Liberals and Conservatives are idiots", "you are mindless drones"...
Please contunue to enlighten all of us mindless idiots with your great wisdom.
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Salvatorre the Redeemer - 2009-12-28 03:34:54
You make an awesome argument Salvatorre. The same example could be applied to many other things that many of us are forced to support in one way or another.
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Dodgeball - 2009-12-28 01:10:05
Charles...you are lousy at your attempts to be slippery. You are obviously avoiding answering a very obvious question. I answered yours in a straightforward manner, and now you are blustering and stammering in your attempt to avoid mine. Yes, those who cling to the prehistoric superstitions that we now call religion stake their claim on morality, but I don't get it. According to one of your "commandments," one that is in opposition to abortion I might add, is "thou shalt not kill." Pretty straightforward. BUT Christian conservatives tend to WAIVE that particular commandment in regard to capital punishment, yet enthusiastically polish it up to brandish against abortion legislation. So which is it? Are these commandments absolute or not? So let's get back to religion vs. morality. Catholics oppose abortion AND the death penalty. Should their tax dollars be exempted from BOTH? Charles, stop stalling and answer the freaking question.
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Charles has a point - 2009-12-27 23:57:04
Why is the same group that suports the mass Infintacide that takes place in this country so appalled by the execution of convicted murders? Must be a guilty conscience thing!
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Oh Lord - 2009-12-27 23:16:56
Fred, I will speak slowly so that you can understand: the question is, do you support public (including pro-lifers) funding abortion, or not, and why?
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moral relativism and taxes - 2009-12-27 23:08:20
Should people be forced to make a normative statement if the are pro-freedom-to-choose ? Think about that one if you can my friends, and get back to me. Hint: It is a trick question.
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Oh, "Morality" - 2009-12-27 22:52:46
Salvatorre, everyone has moral objections. They're as common as ticks on a dog, but they typically don't excuse you from paying taxes. I won't generalize -- give me an example. Let me help: if someone has a moral objection to abortion, why do you have the moral right to compel them to participate in it?
Religion is different. My exercise of religion, free from governmental restrictions, is guaranteed by the First Amendment. "Morality" has no such guarantee, probably because it is such a vague term it could mean anything, or nothing at all. And the Founders probably anticipated that.
Back to you.
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Abortionism - 2009-12-27 22:29:29
Charles...I answered your question directly. Now answer mine. Should people who have moral convictions against a particular government practice or action be forced to do something contrary to those convictions? Quit dodging the question.
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Public funding for abortions - 2009-12-27 21:52:46
Well, the article above is about public funding for abortion, is it not? I'm sure there is plenty of outrage over other things, but don't try to change the subject, Salvatorre!
And it was you who equated the death penalty with abortion -- I just questioned the analogy. Your opinion is "Yes, insurance should cover abortions."
Why? Why should people who have religious convictions against the practice (which I think is different from the generalized objection everyone has to the tax system) be forced to do something contrary to those convictions?
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Either Or - 2009-12-27 21:11:52
Charles...you just made my point. I am not a conservative, ergo, I must be liberal. Both lefties and righties in this country are convinced that they have a monopoly on the issues. The rest of us prefer to think for ourselves rather than be spoon-fed our opinions by the demagoguery on either side. Let's start by saying that I have no problem with the death penalty. But to you, morality comes down to numbers. The greater the number, the greater the evil, right? I thought that morality was absolute. But, you conveniently dodged my question by attacking a STANCE on an issue rather than an issue, itself. So Charles, put abortion aside for a moment...what do you think the options are for those taxpayers who feel a moral outrage in other ways that their tax dollars are spent? Again, the moral outrage doesn't end at abortion.
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Close enough - 2009-12-27 20:36:10
Interesting comparison: funding the death penalty versus funding abortion.
Do you think that is a fair comparison? According to Wikipedia, there are @40 executions a years and @ 800,000 abortions/ year in the United States. Why is that the liberals who agonize over the rights of violent criminals have no problem supporting a "woman's right to chose" over the life of a fetus? Is it because It is not alive and/or It is not human? Do you really believe either of those things?
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Easy one - 2009-12-27 19:44:12
Oh, let me take quick break from denigrating, and then I'll crank up again. You act as if the abortion issue exists in a vacuum and is the singular issue facing taxpayers with moral objections. How about this...should public money be used to fund the invasion of Iraq? Capital punishment? A great number of Americans oppose these two issues as well, but they are forced to pay for them by way of taxes. So yes, I believe that insurance should cover abortion.
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No opinion from Salvadorre - 2009-12-27 15:46:58
...on whether it's morally defensible, or even legal, to force the pro-life community to pay for abortions (they are included in the tax base, Salvadorre, sheep though they are).
In all of your soul searching, have you come to any conclusions on the subject? Or are still at the point where you denigrate all those who have deep convictions on the question as ideologues?
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Baaaa - 2009-12-27 10:12:44
Petunia..."if you're not with us, you're against us." The slogan of the narrow-minded. Two choices, and two choices only. Black and white. Right and wrong. Liberal and conservative. You want me to say something intelligent? Fine. You are being sold a package. A bill of goods. You are being being pushed into a a political ideology, whether left or right, that does not benefit you. It benefits you elected officials. They understand how to manipulate the poor ham-and-eggers and get them to do their dirty work. "Caustic?" What-freaking-ever. I don't agree with your narrow ideology so I am abnormal...I am a rabble-rouser. Fine. But know this: I am more soul-searchingly honest than those of you who parrot back the same pre-package talking points that are spoon-fed to you on FOX News and MSNBC. I'll tell you what, Petunia, come up with an argument or a view that hasn't been handed to you on a plastic platter by your ideological, media talking-head. Then talk to me about "new and exciting" contributions.
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The awesome, free man - 2009-12-27 08:11:59
Yes, Savatore, you are the only truly free man in Annapolis. So you have no opinion on the public funding for abortion, is that correct? How nice it is to be free!!
And, Petunia, what is a b.thumper? I have a suspicion, but I can't believe a girl with such a pretty name would be using it!
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Re: Salivatore Bagatelli - 2009-12-27 00:29:53
This "little board" seems to be one of your favorite haunts too. I see that youve spent quite a bit of time posting to other threads.
Theres something about your demeanor that is slightly caustic, although I havent quite pinned it down yet, maybe its your matter of factly attitude which has gotten me into a lot of trouble too. Maybe thats why you and I have so much free time to spend here (no friends?)
Your comments about everyone acting like drones couldnt be farther from the truth and unfortunately that topic has already been covered, we call those people the "Jones".
So do you have anything new or exciting to contribute? You seem like an interesting person....say something intelligent.
What do you think about my buddy Charles idea about putting all of the Liberals in a jar? We could stick all of the b.thumpers in another jar and you could stand overtop of us and grace us with your mere presence. I for one would like that very much.
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Petunia Fields - pasadena, md - Karma: Bad
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Sheep - 2009-12-26 23:49:43
Liberals and Conservatives are idiots. Yeah, I said it. You live the exact same lives, go to the exact same jobs, pay the exact same bills, and live in the exact same houses. BUT because you both decide to listen to different demagogue, you are brainwashed into thinking that you are enemies. Here's a helpful hint: the talking heads on FOX News and MSNBC make their living by pitting their mindless followers against each other. All congressmen and senators, even YOUR congressman and senator, are lying dirtbags. In fact, whether liberal or conservative, your representative takes money from special interests, sends their kids to private school, and is far removed from your trials and tribulations, whatever they may claim. So continue to argue and fight on this little comment board and realize that, by doing so, you are mindless drones and the political establishment counts on that.
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Re: Idea: put the Liberals in the J - 2009-12-26 23:48:14
Charles, that privacy thing that I mentioned applies here too. In my world you would be free to worship whoever or whatever you wanted, and chances are I wouldnt even give it a second thought, I would be more concerned with things like food, health, water, clean air, getting from point a to point b, keeping psychos from harming my family, etc. No you absolutely should not have to pay for someone elses abortion..I completely understand your side of the argument and have had the same arguments in countries where they take abortion to the extreme. At least here in the USA once a child is born, defective or not the child is normally welcomed into the family and cared for. In some places, many places for that matter defective or less than perfect children are dispatched at birth (go to many places in Europe and you wont see a single disabled person).
Considering the sensitivity of the topic, and the relatively low cost of an abortion, it seems ludicris to have added that to the bill in the first place. I guess if a person had the need for discount or bulk abortion rates then we could give them a special plan, kind of like the eyeglass or dental option.
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Idea: put the Liberals in the Jar - 2009-12-26 23:01:34
Yes, I wonder what would happen when you put 100 liberals in a 2 gallon jar and remove the filter? I would pay to see that!
I see you haven't responded to the question, whether pro-life people should be forced to pay for abortion. Don't you think that has the effect of prohibiting the free exercise of religion?
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Re: Did you forget the polar bears? - 2009-12-26 22:17:52
Charles....put 100 gold fish in a 2 gallon jar and watch what happens. Fill the top with smoke, remove the filter and watch it happen quicker. If we keep going with this they will have to rename the thread "logic hijacked by religion".
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Did you forget the polar bears? - 2009-12-26 21:57:09
No, Petunia, my point was that the "population experts" were WRONG in their predictions: according to their timeline we would all be eating one another by now.
"Overpopulation" was the AGW, uh, I mean Climate Change alarm of the 1960's. Dire and unverifiable predictions cast by liberals with political agendas to promote their own social re-modification plans.
And please don't put Big Brother up there as a boogabo, when it was you liberals that created Him: effectively the fourth branch of government: an administrative bureacracy filled with social do-gooders and thought police.
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Re: Breeding like Rats? - 2009-12-26 21:41:40
I think its pretty obvious that the would be technocrats and social engineers were right on with there forecasts. But big brother does a good job of hiding all of the details. People are starving and growing up malnourished in record numbers, water tables are dropping, "peak oil" really did happen, the earths lungs have been razed and burned, and within a decade or two all of these problems will be right in our faces.
If you include India, and China with your overbreeding comment I will agree with that one.
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Breeding like Rats? - 2009-12-26 21:00:41
Wow. I still can't understand why liberals, who always justify abortion in terms of the impoverished millions living in poverty, view such teeming millions with such disgust! Over-population was advanced as a justification for abortion 30 years ago: would-be social engineers and technocrats confidently predicted that the world's resources would be depleted within 20 years!!
Regardless, when liberals talk about people breeding like rats, they are referring to Americans; and when they weep for the impoverished, they are referring to African children.
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Re: Petunia Fields - 2009-12-26 20:40:11
Well unfortunately the b.thumping ultra conservatives have decided how my husband and I should behave in our bedroom too, so as long as we remain to be law abiding citizens then you dont have to worry about that either.
Why dont you concentrate on something that could be genuinely considered your business, Such as the millions of orphans that have no family or anyone to care for them. Or the need for laws that prevent some people from breeding like rats (having 8-10 kids per litter should be outlawed too). If you did, and agreed to leave your bombmaking supplies & comic books at home id be first in line behind you.
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Comment removed by HometownAnnapolis staff. - 2009-12-26 20:20:59
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One more thing - 2009-12-26 20:17:07
If this is all about choice why isnt anyone concerned with the childs choice? Maybe it wants to live! Doesn't the U.S. constitution that Anti-Lifers bring up promise the right to life and liberty?
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Comment removed by HometownAnnapolis staff. - 2009-12-26 20:15:18
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Sad times we live in - 2009-12-26 20:10:47
When a newspaper is worried about offending child murderers rather the child be unborn or a 2 year old. People are talking about the world ending in 2012 but I say its already gone to hell.
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"Fairness" is casually, - 2009-12-25 22:10:32
and overly used as a justification these days. It reminds me of the proverb, Needs must when the devil drives.
So for those who weep over the fundamental "unfairness" of it all, I ask, isn't it unfair that you would force a (nominally) free people to cooperate in what they regard as an evil act, namely, abortion? Especially when there are constitutional safeguards in place to protect those people in their conscientious objections? Isn't that unfair, Petunia?
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Re: Its about Power, not Justice - 2009-12-24 22:25:08
I agree that Obama is waging class warfare but he sold us out mid stride. The pharmaceutical companies were given preferential treatment and a green light to continue pillaging our country in exchange for 100's of millions in advertising dollars to support his bill. The cause is just and very much needed but the means that were used to save face could almost be considered treasonous.
Re: Mike, I completely agree and work too hard for what little bit of money I have to support crackheads and alcoholics who refuse to work for a living. That issue should be addressed and some type of community services should be required in exchange for benefits as long as the person is capable and not restrained from such activities due to responsbilities such as parenthood, old age, valid disabilities, etc.
I think the big corporations that have billions of dollars left after everyone else is paid should be placed in a special category with higher taxes imposed and used to give something back to the communities and people that made those levels of success possible. A person only needs so much money each month to pay there bills and then everything above and beyond is all icing on the cake. Impose a huge tax on profits in excess of a billion dollars and i'll bet theyll still eat quite well. And if they decide to leave the country then good riddens, we can just reimport the drugs that we need from Canada at a fraction of the cost.
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Re: Its about Power, not Justice - 2009-12-24 22:09:46
In all fairness it was a fairly serious puncture wound that penetrated her kidney and involved some blood transfusions. They made a 12-14 inch incision so they could get in and clean up (via surgery)the wound every 4-5 days. Everytime they cleaned the wound added $12-$15k to the total. So between all of the surgeries (10-11),$135K for the pills, 1-2k a day for the room x 40+/- days (shock trauma), 6k for the kind old lady who pushed my daughters wheelchair ("therapy")through the halls for a total of 2hrs, etc. yes it was over $400,000.000. She was almost ready to leave after 3-4 weeks but picked up some sort of infection during one of the surgeries. That worked out pretty good for the hospital since they netted an extra $150-200k for the extra time they got to keep her. They did save her life and for that im grateful.
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Its about Power, not Justice - 2009-12-24 20:34:22
Petunia, with all due respect for the personal effect you have experienced (but really, $500,000 for a puncture wound?) the highest rank in terms of profit margin enjoyed by an industry related to health care (pharmecuticals) is . . . 16th. http://bit.ly/5Knmf8
Obamacare will do nothing to lower costs. The administration cast the debate in terms of class warfare only to get the bill passed -- Obama needs a signature domestic policy and after the 2010 elections he will get nothing.
And the Problem you refer to ("poverty" to be exact) is much older than 200 years. Try 10,000 years. There have always been haves and have nots. Obamacare will not give anything to the have-nots: it will only plunge the "income deprived" further into a degraded state of dependency and entitlement, and consolidate Democratic control over a predictable voting block.
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Petunia - 2009-12-24 11:02:47
I agree with most of your thoughts, but it will be the average working class guy like me that foots the bill for this proposal. I've worked full time since I was fifteen years old, worked very hard and paid more than my share of taxes. Now I'm going to be forced to pay for health care of those that choose not to work. If the government assistance programs weren't abused so badly, maybe it would make a difference. I've never had much but I've always supported myself and found a way to get my own health care, whether through an employer or on my own when I was self employed. I'll agree that health care is out of hand, but I disagree with the notion that the government should provide it for many reasons.
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Tylenol - 2009-12-24 01:00:19
As I stated in another thread that has mysteriously disappeared, obscene profit margins have no place in a civilized society and the medical industry needs special controls since it affects literally everyones lives in such a personal way.
The ins. co's, and hospitals blame the high cost of health care on the cost of malpractice insurance. So if thats a truthful and accurate statement then how can they explain the billions of dollars in profits the pharmaceutical companies earn each year by holding so many lives hostage. A lot of these profits are shared with the hospitals, ins. co's, and politicians in various forms such as grants, cash, "business" trips for hundreds of people at a time to 5 star resorts, etc.
Out of the $450,000.00 hospital bill that my daughter incurred during her 5 wk stay to treat a PUncture wound, $135,000 of that was for a handful of pills. The same drugs can be purchased in many other countries (including most of Europe and the entire N & S.American continents with the exception of the USA)for a tiny fraction of what we are forced to pay here.
I guess the gist of my thoughts are that we need to tackle this problem at the source rather than with more 5,000 page laws that only cater to the politicians personal goals and the massive fortunes of the privelaged few that seem to stand behind the curtains pulling all of the strings.
I understand that many of my comments seem to be contradictory, but were dealing with a 200 year old problem (the privelaged few vs the masses. There is no easy fix but we (The Majority) need to start somewhere.
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Greed - 2009-12-24 00:29:18
Greed seems to the main motivator for both the politicians decisions and most of the people who oppose the health reform bill. Those that already have plenty feel that everythings ok and nothing should change. But the reality is that those that have so much should be thankful for the same people that they seem to despise and belittle. In particular most members of the armed forces cant even afford what many of you consider starter homes, yet if it wasnt for them you wouldnt have the freedom to peddle your wares or services. And if it wasnt for the immigrants, many of you wouldnt be able to afford to eat. Its time for those that have raped the system to give back to those that made there luxurious lifestyles possible. Consider it dividends.
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Latest Quinnipiac Poll - 2009-12-22 11:39:18
shows that 72% of the voters oppose using any public money in the health care overhaul to pay for abortions:
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1408
But considering how corrupt Congress is, I suppose it wouldn't matter if opposition was at 90%.
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An evil and perverse law - 2009-12-22 05:37:37
The worst part is that the law forces pro-life people to pay for abortions. I can't think of a crueler or more mean-spirited thing!
It's not enough that abortion is legal: they are going to put the knife in our hands and force us to do the deed. They will force compliance. They will force acceptance. They do not care that you think it is evil. You WILL be participating because that is the only way a criminal can rationalize his crime and ease his conscience: by having others participate in the offense.
The next time I hear a liberal talking about diversity of opinions and valuing other peoples and the importance of debate, I will think, "These are the people who forced others to do something they KNEW would be regarded as evil."
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Your liberty is a fact - 2009-12-21 22:27:01
"They don't mean anything because true liberation and freedom are internal qualities to be aspired for. Those who believe that the Govt. is taking away "freedom and liberty" are paranoid."
Stephen, I'm still holding out hope for you, because I believe that you're smart, and can be turned from the dark side. Liberty and Freedom are not simply "internal qualities". They are the things many people before you have suffered and died for. Think to yourself, tomorrow morning, of the little things that you do because you will, and not because someone told you to. Someone sacrificed so you can feel that way, Stephen, and the only reason you feel that way is because that is the way it is. In this country, anyway. Now get with the progam.
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Stephen - 2009-12-21 14:01:41
You dont have a clue do you? I really think you live in another state of mind than someone who actually uses logic.
Let me ask you this question; WHO is going to fund this health care SCAM and all the other government programs you seem to drool over when they completely shut down the machine that enabled you to have such wonderful benefits and luxuries in this country? Government CERTAINLY doesnt make or produce anything. The government does nothing for the most part other than suck from teat of those who go out and actually produce something. The government makes nothing and sells nothing. When all the small businesses and the like are run out of town, WHO is going to pay the government in the form of taxes to support your idea of utopianism?
Really, dont ask or answer any other question until you can fully address the quandary of no money but yet require huge government social programs. What kind of math are you considering for this magic trick?
I am willing to bet you work for the government, do you?
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Pyranoid? - 2009-12-21 13:42:59
I don't think the opinions of those opposed to the health care plan have anything to do with being pyranoid at all. I'm not going to engage in the "democrat vs republican" argument, but I can tell you this plan is not designed to benefit the public at all. It's just another exercise of power and control. I'll agree that the health care system could use improvement, but thinking a government run program would be better then anything else the government has taken control of and not end in disaster is insanity. Just ask anyone in a country where the government runs their health care. I have a friend in Ireland that has been on a waiting list for eight months for testing to see why she has a tumor on her neck. By the time she's diagnosed, it will probably be too late. Look at Canada; their situation is a disaster. Is health care expensive under the free enterprise system? Absolutely. But, profit perpetuates innovation. If no one is making a profit, do you really believe there will be breakthroughs in modern medicine like we now have? At the risk of repeating another poster's thoughts, the opportunity for profit is what has brought this country so far in only 200 years, and it is what drives immigrants to go to extreme measures to get here. Instead of blaming republicans for the price we pay, why not focus a little more on the greed that drives people to be so sue-happy and the lawyers that thrive on it? Health care is always going to be expensive...if not by the bill we get in the mail then by the taxes we're going to pay. "Anything a government has the power to provide you with, it also has the power to take it away".
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We will all pay much more..... - 2009-12-21 13:36:06
We're all gonna have to fork out a LOT more money for all of this. Those of us that work hard, pay our taxes, and take care of our bodies will now have to pay even MORE so the out-of-work alcoholic can get his liver transplant at our expense, so the lifetime smoker can get medications and breathing machines at our expense, so the fat, lazy, stay-at-home mom who is 150lbs. overweight can get blood pressure medications & weight control pills at our expense, and so the illegal aliens that don't even pay taxes can continue to abuse our emergency health care system. So why not just buck up and fund abortions too? We're paying for every other situation once this passes. Pre-existing conditions? Hell yea, people should be denied and pre-screened for certain things. I don't smoke, so why do I have to pay more to assist a smoker? I don't drink, so why do I have to pay more to fund all the alcoholics out there who will develop cirrhosis? I'm very healthy, so why do I have to pay the same amount that some fat slob my same age pays? It ain't fair to make hard-working Americans pay into this Socialist system.....America is gonna go to hell in a hand bucket over all this.
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Health Care Sam? - 2009-12-21 13:03:21
The real health care scam has been perpetuated by the insurance companies and the Republicans and some number of Dems who have protected this industry forever. The light of freedom and liberty. Please. The right wingers love to use such worn out slogans. They don't mean anything because true liberation and freedom are internal qualities to be aspired for. Those who believe that the Govt. is taking away "freedom and liberty" are paranoid. Making access to health care more attainable and secure will do far more to further those ideals than a bunch of ideologically based blather from delusional Conservatives.
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R Marshall - 2009-12-21 11:09:01
Ok - then what do you call someone who falsely believes in this health care scam?
I happen to think that it is utterly foolish and that is what you call it when you think it to be something.
Ok - so you're for freedom right, me too then I have the right to call a spade a spade.
You see feelings is what has gotten us here where we are in this country. So feelings aside, focus on the issue and let you're "hurt" feelings fall to the wayside.
Thanks for you're concern though.
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Mr. Rogers - 2009-12-21 09:36:48
I do agree that the government is not going to be able to provide a well managed health care system. We do need less government and not more government.
However, by name calling anybody that does not believe like you a "FOOL" is wrong.
You mentioned freedom. That's exactly what this country was founded on, freedom. We have freedom to have different thoughts, and able to post those thoughts, without fear of being locked in jail.
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Correction to my last post that was - 2009-12-21 08:47:50
Anyone, repeat, ANYONE, who thinks the government's plan is going to be a fix and or even a blessing is sadly mistaken and is a FOOL!
How many failed government programs does one need to see before they are convinced? How many wasted dollars and mismanaged bureaucracies is one willing to stomach before they see the light of liberty and freedom?
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Stephen - 2009-12-20 23:36:47
There was no swearing in my comment. I said nothing offensive beyound the opposite of the authors view. It was censored. Lets look into history of what kind of people censor people who disagree with them. We have Hitler, Stalin, China, Cuba......... All Socialist.
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Send $$ offshore - 2009-12-20 20:51:59
Stephen, you seem like a smart guy, so I'd bet YOU'RE insured: your car's insured, health, too; possibly life and homeowner's insurance as well. Do you really think its unfair to deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions? That is other people's money the insurance company is dealing with: where do you get that the insurance companies have a duty to cover pre-existing conditions? Unfair? Maybe, in the sense that it is unfair that most people in this world live in grinding poverty. I get it, but does that mean that the American citizens have to give all their money away to salve your horrible little conscience? According to you, the answer is a resounding "Yes!"
The bill will be repealed before it becomes effective. It's a mess anyway, and I can't tell you how many people would rather go to jail than pay for your liberal-sanctioned abortion payments. Freedom of belief/opinion, my eye: the hypocrisy of you liberals is staggering!
Plus, don't think the insurance companies that you villify aren't 3-4 steps out ahead of you on this. Your premiums are going up, too, to cover all the wretched your heart bleeds for.
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Comment removed by HometownAnnapolis staff. - 2009-12-20 17:15:38
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Socialist Agenda? - 2009-12-20 14:24:03
My, my, my the wingnuts accuse the moderator of this blog of having a socialist agenda. Have people completely lost their minds? Clearly, some have here. Regardless of the right-wing lunatic fringe gnashing their teeth and foaming at the mouth, the U.S. Congress is on the verge of passing a comprehensive health care bill. While not perfect by any stretch, it will put an end to most of the cold-hearted and pernicious practices such as denying people a policy for pre-existing conditions, canceling policies after someone gets sick, etc. This bill is a start and will need to be improved later. Too bad we could not put a stake through the heart of the soul sucking insurance companies and created a single payer system like the majority of the civilized world.
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Stephen Martin - Crofton, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Censorship - 2009-12-19 20:39:28
The only way my comment would offend anyone is because I dissagreed with the Author not another user. He is entitled to his opinion as I am mine. Your censorship just shows your socialist agenda.
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John Farrell - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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It's unconstitutional! - 2009-12-19 14:15:34
Guess what John? There isn't going to be any "Health Care Bill"...because the bill that's being pushed through by the idiots in Washington is unconstitutional. (Not only have you obviously not read the bill, you've obviously not read the constitution.) The Federal Government cannot require citizens to purchase ANYTHING! (Car Insurance is required if you want to drive a car, but you can choose not to drive...and the States require Insurance if you CHOOSE to take advantage of the privilege to drive)...Once this health care garbage is passed, there will be legal challenges relating to the constitutionality of this mess and it will take years to sort it all out. Hopefully by then, the adults will be back in charge and our excellent health care system won't be damaged and the problem of "HEALTH CARE FINANCING"..can be addressed by people with a functioning brain!
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Fred Bralman - Arnold, Md - Karma: Neutral
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Charles - 2009-12-19 09:43:49
No, you don't understand. If I deleted the comment because of the use of "anti-choice" why would I repeat it? I will repeat - the post was deleted because it contained a comment specifically directed at another user that I found offensive. That's it, let's move on.
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Nick Lundskow - Annapolis, MD Staff
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Oh Good Lord! - 2009-12-19 09:04:50
Are people that sensitive? I don't even understand, is the term offensive to the "pro-life" community? It wasn't even offensive to me, and I'm a part of that community!
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Deleted post - 2009-12-18 21:59:37
John's deleted post did not address "Obamacare." It concerned the use of the phrase "anti-choice." It also included a comment directed at another user that could be considered offensive. Anyone who follows these comments should be aware that I have a very low tolerance of nasty comments directed at fellow commenters.
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Nick Lundskow - Annapolis, MD Staff
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Wow! - 2009-12-18 20:48:24
Well, "John's" post has been deleted, although it was 2 sentences long, and was not offensive at all (just anti-Obamacare). This paper is turning into an instrument of the State. I am starting a screenshot archive of the posts I see.
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Thanks, John - 2009-12-18 20:44:40
For bring the discussion back on topic. I think the worst part of his letter is this:
"Health care reform will expand access to quality, affordable health care for millions of women."
1. They say that the bill will address the cost concerns of all citizens, not just women.
2. Assuming that the "reform" is meant to help only women, cutting $500 million in Medicare would not help elderly, lower income women. Perhaps it is simply their time to die.
3. Nor would it help poor women, young or old: the claims that this programme would not increase the deficit (and thus taxes) is delusional.
4. So then diDonato must mean that "reform" will help young YUPPIE ladies, who are primarily white.
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Comment removed by HometownAnnapolis staff. - 2009-12-18 19:17:32
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K C - 2009-12-18 13:52:43
"If you're going to criticize the current administration, criticize them for the policies they've implemented while IN OFFICE."
That is exactly what I am doing that is what this post is all about; the current policies and the ones being forged by THIS administration.
Hey, youre not going to get an argument from me on W, I voted for him twice and I now realize that it was not the best thing I could have done. He did a lot of things that no president should have done, but, he is in the same strain as the current administration and the one before him. I agree they are all to blame. Precisely, this is what we get when we turn from a government thats sole job is to secure, protect and defend God given rights and instead move to a government that thinks its their job to give you and I rights. Not to mention a government that thinks its job is to spread democracy throughout the world. It is NOT the presidents job to put its nose in other peoples business and be the savior of the world. This war is an ungodly war and it is being carried out by the Bushs, the McCains, the Clintons, and the Obamas in this world. It is bankrupting this country and needs to be stopped. We cant even protect our own borders and yet they are fooling people in this country and stating that they can protect the borders of various nations throughout the world all the while fighting (2) wars.
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Abortion to politics - 2009-12-18 09:55:55
Sorry R, had to clean the sand out of my ears after coming up for air! lol "You've been warned" Hahahaha! Funny guy.
Vote these people out of office??? If I remember corectly, when W took office thanks to the debacle in Florida, we had a surplus...a SURPLUS! No matter who you vote in, a majority of our elected officials will abuse their power. The current administration should not be to blame for the deficit they inherited. If you don't agree, you may as well change your name to Sean Hannity.
If you're going to criticize the current administration, criticize them for the policies they've implemented while IN OFFICE.
I'm not ommitting Democrats from being part of the problem of our current deficit in the trillions, but the deficit itself was due in large part to a war we had no business taking part in. I'm talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan.
I foresee that the people who are absolutely incensed in blaming the current administration for our problems will be making excuses or deflecting reality when the 22 million lost emails of the W era.
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K C - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Charles - 2009-12-18 07:59:55
Unfortunately, the only way that progressives, liberals and the like can fight against rejection and dissent is to complain, describing how something is offensive, then having the objectors silenced, especially in this case by deleting your comments. You see Charles; they dont have a leg to stand on when their ways and beliefs are put up for debate. Like I said earlier somewhere on this long blog, the positions they hold are indefensible when held up to the light of truth.
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Hey, where did my comment go? - 2009-12-17 23:14:30
It was the comment that R. Rogers is agreeing to. As I recall, it described Obama as a moron (as in "whatta moron") for declaring bankruptcy when the country is already in impossible debt, and asked what chapter of the bankuptcy code he would file under.
Offensive? Is cost not part of the health care debate? Or have I just lost my comment?
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Agreed! - 2009-12-17 15:37:12
We are already bankrupt. We owe in excess of 50 trillion dollars. These dollars represent unfunded liabilities that ultimately require borrowing from China, assessing extreme tax increases across the board, or just printing money out of thin air like never before. This keep, in mind, will work to continue the ruination of our country if they agree to stop spending over budget each year, yea, and we know how that is fairing so far huh? They just signed on to over a trillion dollar deficit this year alone.
WE ARE BROKE!!! What do people not understand? When you owe more than you take in and your liabilities far, far exceed your assets this is when bankruptcy occurs. News!!! We are already there...and they want you to agree to this health reform scam so they can bury you even further. Oh yea just trust us they say, come on people, vote these people out of office.
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Comment disabled due to community reporting. - 2009-12-17 13:26:31
Why is this comment hidden?
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Not all Christians are Fundamentali - 2009-12-17 13:20:59
Per Wikipedia, the only source I am cognizant of, "The term fundamentalist has historically referred specifically to members of the various Protestant denominations who subscribed to the five "fundamentals", rather than fundamentalists forming an independent denomination. This wider movement of Fundamentalist Christianity has since broken up into various movements...
Over time the term came to be associated with a particular segment of Evangelical Protestantism, who distinguished themselves by their separatist approach toward modernity, toward aspects of the culture which they feel typify the modern world, and toward other Christians who did not similarly separate themselves."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism#Protestant_Christian_views
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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K C - 2009-12-17 12:28:13
Who are the liars? WHO ARE THE LIARS??? Lololol K C have you been keeping your head in the sand (or a box) for the last year? Are you kidding me? The question you just asked is not even one worth answering for you are just pushing buttons. You know full well, assuming your head is actually NOT in the box, what has transpired over the last year.
You can take what I say about the Bible and do what you want with it, you can go check it out for yourself and see if these things are true or you can disregard it completely, that is entirely up to you, know this though, if you have taken the time to read what I wrote in the last post about the good news of Christ, you have been warned.
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Charles - 2009-12-17 11:14:10
fun⋅da⋅men⋅tal
ˌfʌn dəˈmɛn tlShow Spelled Pronunciation [fuhn-duh-men-tl] Show IPA
adjective
1. serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.
2. of, pertaining to, or affecting the foundation or basis: a fundamental revision.
3. being an original or primary source: a fundamental idea.
4. Music. (of a chord) having its root as its lowest note.
Charles according to the definition above, if someone doesnt hold to the fundamentals (and is therefore a fundamentalist) then they arent even a Christian in theory, just one in lip service (which is therefore not one).
For example, how can anyone be an American, if they dont hold the fundamental truths of what an American is? I.E. a "fundamentalist"? Not sure I follow the logic your using when claiming that not all Christians are fundamentalists. Care to explain, maybe Im not reading you right?
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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R. - 2009-12-17 11:13:39
"This man is a proven liar and has shown that he will say anything to get his agenda through."
You're getting your information from your Bible and Obama is getting his information from his economic team. Both, you and Obama, expect us to believe what you say is true.
Who are the liars?
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K C - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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ps Jen - 2009-12-17 11:04:33
Correction to "theory" in last post.
Also, if this were possible, maybe that would be a good thing, maybe the ones who are there will go home since the money has dried up and then we (Americans) can get someone in there who actually knows what they are doing and someone that has a clue. I am speaking about Washington in general.
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Jen - 2009-12-17 11:00:00
Sure - question first for you. Did he mention HOW this could be or WHY this would be? Do you think it might be a last ditch effort to "scare" the vote and get citizens to jump on board?
I see no facts or specifics on how this could happen nor do I see an economical theaory to even justify such RHETORIC!
This man is a proven liar and has shown that he will say anything to get his agenda through.
So, get some facts and test to see whether what he says is true, I think you'll find this is just more scare tactics.
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R. Rogers - Harwood, MD - Karma: Terrible
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K C - 2009-12-17 10:55:14
All have sinned, sin is lawlessness, and the Ten Commandments are the law. The law is not to be kept in order to be saved from eternal punishment. The law was given that it might reveal our sinfulness, we are not saved by the law it only acts as a schoolmaster to bring us to the knowledge of sin. Jesus Christ - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. This is the good news of Jesus Christ: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to many. That through the blood of Christ, God can now look upon sinful fallen man, when He sees us, He sees Christ, when He sees Christ, He sees our sin. It is the substitution of punishment for the crimes of another. His life for ours. He paid the debt you will not be able to repay.
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World News last night - 2009-12-17 10:24:28
Charlie Gibson interview Obama last night and our President stated that "if this health care plan does not pass, the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WILL BE FORCED TO DECLARE BANKRUPTCY..."
anyone care to comment on that??
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Jen Rhoades - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Good
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Little bit off topic - 2009-12-17 09:12:44
K.C., I think the First Amendment has to do with rights, not duties.
Also, many Christian theologians (and Christians, myself included) understand Genesis as a poetic account given by the author through divine revelation. And although I respect their devotion, not all Christians are fundamentalists.
Immaculate conception was not scientifically possible -- that is the point: it was a miracle.
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Charles Carroll - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Sorry Charles - 2009-12-17 08:33:36
I need to wake up before I hit "Enter".
Charles - The last portion of the 1st Amendment; "or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" can be interpreted to mean that the people have the right to keep others, including the government, in check.
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K C - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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You sucked be back in - 2009-12-17 08:32:16
Charles - The last portion of the 1st Amendment; "or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" can be interpreted to mean that the people have the right to keep others, including the government.
R - That's creationism...which is a theory, just like evolution.
And he said "Let there be light", so he created the Sun? But when the light fades, it reflects off of the moon (which he also created) to assist us in darkness along with thousands of tiny lights (stars).
Why isn't Saturn, Uranus, Mercury, and all of the other planets mentioned during the six days it took him to create our world??? Simple answer: No one in that region (Middle East) knew they existed to include them into their theory.
The Greeks had their own Gods and Goddesses. The Arabs had Allah. Some Asians had Buddah. Why do Christians believe their God and his son, Jesus Christ, are the be-all and end-all to reason our world exists? Immaculate conception?! Is that scientifically possible? Please don't say yes.
Life existed LONG before the "Greatest Story ever told". Is it assumed that god created dinosaurs, since it was a living creature?
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K C - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Terrible
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Obligation - 2009-12-16 20:12:47
You're right, K.C., it is the obigation of all citizens to make sure that the Government does not use the poor as a political tool; I did not mean to limit this only to Christians. It's just that this was the group under discussion.
A better question for me is WHY citizens have this obligation.
I don't think that its the First Amendment. There is no positive law that says that citizens should keep their reps in check. "We the people" comes to mind though: the idea that political power (in the United States) springs from the people.
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