The lieutenants, frustrated their subordinates earn more money and have greater protections, have been fighting to unionize since October.
"There's no one on the bench wanting to be lieutenant," said Benoit, D-Crownsville. "It's never been this way. There's always a lot of people waiting to be promoted."
The lieutenants have been entangled in a legal battle with the county, which has traditionally opposed unionization of management personnel. County officials did not comment on the bill this morning.
The issue could quickly become politicized during the election season, as candidates on both sides of the aisle want endorsements from police, but may want to distance themselves from organized labor.
As of Friday, only Councilman Charles W. Ferrar, D-Edgewater, had publicly expressed support.
Lt. Tim Zywiolek, a 23-year veteran leading the charge to unionize, said the leadership of the county Police Department is at stake if the sergeants can't be enticed to step into promotions.
"We have some of the best sergeants out there, and they're frustrated because they can't move up in the command without taking a pay cut," Zywiolek said. "Eventually, that's going to snowball into the effect that we're not going to have anyone in leadership positions."
Union contracts have guaranteed pay increases to the sergeants in recent years, but lieutenants and other unrepresented employees have seen flat pay as the county grappled with historic budget gaps. The disparity means that lieutenants, who unlike sergeants cannot earn overtime, often take home less pay than the people they supervise in the field.
In decades past, lieutenants served administrative roles behind desks, but in recent years have been deployed to the field alongside sergeants.
"Lieutenants are now actively out there all the time. They're responding to calls with all the officers and sergeants," Zywiolek said.
County officials have acknowledged the problem over the past few years, and increased the maximum pay allowed under county law for lieutenants. But since budget holes have been patched in part with employee concessions, there's no way for lieutenants to reach those maximums.
Their counterparts in the fire department, however, are allowed to unionize and haven'tseen the same problems.
"Not at all," said Craig Oldershaw, president of the county's fire union.
"Labor's not trying to bankrupt this country, and certainly not this county," Oldershaw said. "They're just looking for their fair, equitable share. (During the budget crisis), the labor units all stepped up, did what they had to do, and we all balanced this budget."
Benoit said he expects the administration "to be extremely hostile" to the proposal.
The proposal will get a public hearing in August.
Managing Editor Loretta Haring contributed to this story.
If you encounter other problems, please email nlundskow@capitalgazette.com and include your name, username, and any errors or messages that are displayed. The more information you can provide, the better able we will be to assist you.
In order to post or vote on a comment, you must be signed in with a hometownannapolis account.
Take a look at a summary of Commenting Guidelines.
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
0
Just Fairness, that's all! - 2010-07-24 11:27:12
This bill is being introduced because the county has failed to treat the management team here fairly. It's simple as that. Subordinates make more money than their supervisors period! You lose money getting promoted, period! You are better off staying away from the top ranks, period! This will create a power shift up top because really, who in their right mind would continue to move up the ladder knowing their financial situation was better where they were.
This is not about a raise. I will guarantee you that these Lieutenants wouldn't be fighting for this is the county had treated them fairly over the years. I haven't heard them cry about getting furlough days this year! Why, because it's not about a raise, it's about simple fairness!
Nowhere can you find something this ridiculous, yet so easy to fix. It's 30 people and less than 50 in the total command staff of our police department. Folks, please do a little research on this, it's all about fairness.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
James Thomas - Crofton , MD - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
1
Mark M - 2010-07-23 21:23:09
Regardless of why police get into the business ... and regardless of whether they "know" it going in ... they still deserve better pay. Can you put a price on the decreased life span of police officers Mark? Is it simply just "wanting more" as you put it or is it just giving these guys and girls a descent life and ability to live in this county.
Oh and if you think taxes are high ... you may want to move to New York, New Jersey or California ... and then I think you'd have a change of heart Mark.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Tim Copperbottom - Dunkirk, md - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
4
AA CO Taxes - 2010-07-23 17:30:36
Mark,
I am a conservative fellow (fiscally and otherwise), I wish Prince George's County Property Taxes were as low as Anne Arundel's. I know someone who moved from Prince George's County to Anne Arundel into a home worth 100,000 more and they were shocked that their property tax bill was going to be lower each year in Anne Arundel.
Here's the thing... No one in Anne Arundel wants their services cut (twice a week trash pick up, nice parks, two public ice skating rinks, two public indoor pool centers, excellent police and fire protection), but these things cost money. The politicians want to hold the line on taxes (even though AA County citizens pay less than every one else). So, the budget is unfairly and unequitably on the backs of unrepresented public safety employees.
Talking to the higher ranking AAPD folks I know, the issue is not about getting a pay raise, it is most about fixing a broken pay structure, a structure and system that currently causes public safety employees yearly wages to drop upon promotion to currently unrepresented ranks.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Bert Hammerson - Hyattsville, MD - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
2
Facts - 2010-07-23 12:15:08
Mark,
You bring up a great point..if the pay situation is bad for Lieutenants, why doesn't the Police dept find a way to correct it? I will tell you exactly why. Police Lieutenants are just considered non-represented county employees. The get the same raises,merit increases, COLA, etc, that every other county non-represented employee gets. Their salary isn't decided by the Police Chief at all. And here is the real truth that every person needs to realize before they get upset whether their taxes are going up: The County Police Department runs it's budget so well that each year it ends up returning at least one million dollars back to the county coffers...some years this number is more than that. The Lieutenants pay could easily be corrected and included in the money already allocated to the police dept. and it wouldn't effect anything. That is probably a fact the county doesn't want the citizens to believe, but you can check the budget information for the past five years and see this is true.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Martin Williams - Hanover, MD - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 1
3
I - 2010-07-23 09:18:27
can't speak to Bert's situation but like I said in an earlier post I pay property taxes in 3 counties in MD as well as in one county in DE. AACO taxes are by far the lowest I pay in the state, for me the quality of my life is best in AACO and I only pay a fraction here versus the 2 other counties. No one wants to pay more taxes, but we could all dig a bit deeper to maintain the lifestyle we all enjoy.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Pat Magnum - Arnold, MD - Karma: Bad
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 3
2
not disagreeing - 2010-07-23 08:39:37
Im not at all disagreeing with the fact that the lieutenants deserve to be paid more. I just dont think this is a "county problem" where the lieutenants need to (or should be allowed to) unionize.
The Police department is issued a budget along with every other department. It is up to the police department to make sure it is spent appropriately. Clearly, this isn't happening.
There is NO thought on the part of these comments as to where this money is going to come from. It just sounds like a case of "give them more." Police officers know what they are getting into when they join the force... they take all the risks KNOWING that they are getting into a dangerous field.... In fact, i would bet MOST police officers love that adrenaline rush, that danger, and the power... and THAT is why they get into it.
EVERYBODY is struggling through this economy. EVERYBODY wants more.
bert... if you think our taxes our fine, then clearly you arent paying property taxes...
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Mark M - MIllersville, MD - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
3
Police Pay/Jobs - 2010-07-22 10:04:39
Our police lieutenants do a heck of a job and deserve the pay for what they do, just like the rest of us. This is the only county I know that has had police layoffs, thanks to Janet Owens, which we will never recuperate from. In these economic times, it is even more important to have good, viable police officers in AA County, and a well managed force we can remain proud of. Please support this bill.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Linda Reec3e - Odenton, MD - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
4
Management? - 2010-07-21 22:09:19
Cliff,
Police Lieutenants are not true management in terms of how labor can be organized. The true test to whether someone can be considered a "manager" is whether they have the ability to hire and fire employees. Lieutenants are well below this level on the department and should not be considered management. I believe this is why they have the right to organize.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Martin Williams - Hanover, MD - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 4
1
managment - 2010-07-21 20:36:31
Having been a member of 2 different unions I support the right for employees to organize.
I can not support police managment being able to join a union.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Cliff Layman - lothian, MD - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 1
3
Support Bill - 2010-07-21 20:32:07
I think we should support the bill. How many supervise, not manage, those who have a higher pay scale. Almost all employers have a progressive pay scale for employees and under county code one achieves at least 5% raise for a promotion. However, a Lieutenant who got the 5% five years ago is now making far less than a sergeant who did not get promoted. There are some lt's who make less than a corporal, but by the county guidelines the pay should be at lest 10% ahead since he/she is two pay grades above the corporal. I am just talking base pay, since lt's are not allowed overtime and accure comp time at a lower rate as well. The police department currently has professionals in leadership roles and if they leave, regardless of the reason, the applicant pool will be limited to those who desire power since the most qualified sergeant will not seek promotion. Employees require money to support their families and if you have lts, capt, majors and a chief working seoncd jobs there is a problem with their pay. My family can sleep better because of the police and fire.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
chris d - , - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 2
5
Police Pay - 2010-07-21 15:05:45
I can support this 100%.
Police officers deserve every bit of pay they can get and more some. Our police officer are very under paid as it is and they took a cut along with everyone else. How could any one possibly think that they deserve less pay! They put their lives in danger everyday, so that we can be safe day and night. The number of things they have to deal with on a daily basis would overwhelm the average person.
And as for the lieutenants, they are on the road just like the officers and sergeants. They should be able to have union rights like the officers. I don't know anyone that would put the effort into getting promoted if they knew they were going to get paid less... and guys... our guys and gals already get paid so little. So many of them have second, third and fourth jobs... just to make it through. I know they would rather be able to have the weekends off and spend time with their families. But they have to be able to support their family too. So think about the cost? How far would you go to support your family... or would you give up. These guys deserve the pay, give them their union... let them fight for what they deserve... They have put the time, vested themselves into this work field, and it wasn't for the money. It wasn't for gain... They are good, brave people and deserve so much more.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Elizabeth Taylor - , - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
4
About time - 2010-07-21 09:26:19
Someone in government is fixing real problems. Public Safety and Schools are the County Council's number one job and I am glad Councilmember Benoit is stepping up with a solution. It Seems to me that governments past have created this problem by not looking after employees who aren't in unions. If all the cops can negotiate their contracts together I suspect the police will make sure a Lt. makes more than those under him/her. If we don't pay the supervisor more who would want to become a supervisor? The current system almost encourages complacency in the ranks. This iniative should absolutely be supported.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
jen batch - Odenton, Md - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 2
6
police - 2010-07-21 05:14:09
Mr. Copperbottom just said it all. Most of the citizens of this fine county couldn't,(wouldn't) do the job our great officers do. When you sleep through the night without any problems, i.e. burglars, cars broken into etc. thank an officer. He/She is out there 24/7 to provide a service that is essential to keep this county from becoming another Balt. City.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Even Keel - pasadena, md - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 2
7
Its True - 2010-07-20 23:59:01
I have several friends that are police in the Washington metro area. It is true they can lateral back and forth ... as long as they are trained ... they dont have to go through a new academy facility. Numerous officers are going to federal jobs and leaving the state and local polical games. These guys and girls work the craziest hours and I dont think some of them ever sleep. Its not to much for the counties and states to give these folks, along with firefighter and EMS, a raise. Most of them are just trying to give their kids the childhood they were brought up with ... and in order to do that they have to work 3-4 jobs and never see their kids. Its a shame we are even questioning the pay of these servants and I would challenge anyone who thinks they make to much money to go and apply for a job. Most would not make it past the first week.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Tim Copperbottom - Dunkirk, md - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
5
Pro Union v. Anti Union - 2010-07-20 21:23:50
A lot of the comments on this story are centered around the philosophical and political beliefs about unions. However, the underlying topic on point really is how a certain class of employees are treated by their employer.
The police officers and sergeants who are represented by labor organizations are able to negotiate fair wages with their employer (Anne Arundel County). Police lieutenants (and higher ranks) who are not represented get what ever the county wants to give them. There have been multiple years when police lieutenants did not receive a merit step or a cost of living adjustement, even though these steps and COLAs were funded for represented employees. Also, because of the County's interpretation, possibly misinterpretation, of Federal FLSA overtime rules for first responders, the police lieutenants do not get paid for the time they have to work beyond or outside of their regular hours, even though the officers and sergeants they are working with are earning overtime wages. I hear the County did a study on this topic, but won't release it.
This creates a scenario where those who have worked hard, progressed through the ranks, obtained higher education, and have been selected to assume awsome responsibility to become leaders in the organization are finacially penalized for their efforts.
I'm sure that most of the police lieutenants would rather not get involved with a union, however after years of trying to bring attention to the disparities under multiple administrations there doesn't seem to be an alternative. The couple higher ranking officers of the AAPD that I know are professional, hard working leaders in the law enforcement community and I think all they want is a fair shake.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Bert Hammerson - Hyattsville, MD - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
6
Paul Newman - 2010-07-20 15:41:38
Very true it is not 1910. But with comments like yours it shows that there is a need to have unions. Before you start making statements like yours you should understand that there are federal laws that give employees the right to form unions. http://bit.ly/axnjQD Maybe then you will understand that no matter what, unions are hear to stay. Maybe you could become a police officer and join a union.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
A Jones - Not naptown but Annapolis, md - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 3
9
Support the Bill - 2010-07-20 14:09:18
It was my honor and privilege to serve the hardworking citizens of Anne Arundel County for 23 years.
This is a good bill for the citizens to ensure public safety for years to come. I urge all of those who are interested in maintaining our high quality of life to contact their council member and tell them to support the bill:
http://www.aacounty.org/CountyCouncil/
We are talking about only slightly over 30 long term dedicated employees.(even if you dumped 10 grand each on them, which they are certainly not asking for, you still couldn't buy a school superintendent) Where Sergeants ensure the troops do things right the Leiutenants ensure the police do the right thing. They conduct internal investigations, develop new policy and ensure existing policy is followed, do the majority of the community and customer service as well as lend invaluable experience and judgment during crisis situations.
I know many reading just can't believe that they make less then there juniors but it is true and quite frankly it has all of us scratching our heads for almost 15 years.
I can appreciate the hard times and many peoples feelings about unions but you have to remember only till the job market became what it was we just could not fill these positions. (all documented through years of budget submissions)
Take my word these long term employees are not money motivated or they would have not pursued promotions and/or left years ago. And they are certainly not a hotbed of Bolsheviks trying to get your last dollar. They only want to ensure you have strong public safety management for years to come.
Take the moment to email your council person and give them a hand.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
stephen McCullen - , - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 8
5
Union - 2010-07-20 13:45:12
No public servant should be allowed to be in a union. It's 2010 not 1910, if they would give up the bloated union dues maybe like the rest of us 45k a year would be a good salary.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Paul Newman - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 2
10
Police - 2010-07-20 11:30:26
Salvatore,
Just in response to your comment...the only part of the local government that continues to hire is police and fire. And, officers from our county can indeed move laterally to other agencies, that are hiring right now, at a much higher salary. Just thought I would at least show that it is quite feasible for our officers to leave for more pay doing the same line of work.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Martin Williams - Hanover, MD - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 2
9
Police Pay - 2010-07-20 11:27:28
I think many of us all know police officers that live in our communities and see that many of them already need to work second and third jobs just to make ends meet. I find it hard to believe that there are really people out there that think the police officers need to be paid LESS? Although we are in tough economic times, and propbably also know someone that has lost their job, it is hard to imagine having to wear a bullet proof vest to go to work everyday and hope that I would make it home to see my family. Our officers in Anne Arundel County are some of the lowest paid to begin with, which is outrageous. Then, you get the officers that achive success in their careers, are assets to their police department, and you hope that they rise up through their organization to lead the other officers. It seems like if we don't change the way the system is, those officers would be better off leaving to get paid more in other agencies. I would support this legislation because it would seem to hopefully one day correct a backwards pay system that does not reward people for promotion. I can tell you this, although I enjoy my job, I wouldn't want to take on more responsibility, stress, and longer hours and time from my family, only not to be paid more. That just isnt right, no matter what line of work we are in.
As far as whether the police departments lieutenants deserve to be unionized, my understanding is that if you don't have the authority to hire and fire, you are not truly "management". So, if police lieutenents can't do this, then we should ask our County Councilperson to support this. It is also my understanding that Fire Dept. Lieutenants and Captains are already in their union, so why would this even be a question if the police department should have the same rights?
Although I don't really want my own taxes raised, I don't think allowing 30 police dept employees the right to unionize and potentially be given raises to the salary level of thei
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Martin Williams - Hanover, MD - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 7
4
Let's be practical - 2010-07-20 11:25:30
Without picking a side on this never-ending argument about police and/or teacher pay that pops up a few times a year...it is a pretty hackneyed argument to claim that our county will lose police officers to neighboring jurisdictions that pay better. This is the cornerstone of the pro-raise side of the pay debate. That said, where are they going to go? Every county in this country is in the same financial shape as Anne Arundel County. All agencies, Federal, state and local, have frozen hiring. In fact, most government agencies are furloughing employees. The U.S. Attorney is investigating the Montgomery County Police for what appears to be rampant abuse of disability claims. So, where exactly will this talent drain occur?
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Salvatorre Bagatelli - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 2
8
Reality - 2010-07-20 10:59:11
Mark M - what you fail to realize is that yes there is a "Salary Scale" however if the county and their infinite wisdom choose not to fund the salary increases the officers will never reach the maximum and will remain stagnant regardless of the changes in cost of living. Im sure any county officer will gladly lone you his ballistic vest, uniform and gun belt so you can try to attempt to deal with the stresses they do and with scare I'm sure you would not be so inclined to take their offer. And if you happen to take the offer, remember we just cut your pay but you still must perform to the high standards expected of you as you did before we took your pay.
I think many fail to realize what it is like for these officers on a daily basis, to strap on that heavy ballistic vest and gun belt everyday to serve and protect this fine county. To then be told they must continue these high standards will taking a pay cut. They do their finest to make this county a safe and wonderful place to live regardless of what is asked of them, no matter how they are abused and "monday morning quarterbacked." And after taking the heat they shrug it off and show up tomorrow to do it all again, because they took that oath to serve and protect this fine county. Too many of us sit in our air conditioned offices having no idea what its like for these officers to be out in the 90 degree temperatures in their sweat soaked ballistic vests protecting this great county and its fine citizens. If the County fails to act and protect those who protect us, the County Police will suffer and in time will not be able to keep doing more with our less and the result will be disastrous for our county.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Joe Citizen - , - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
9
Police - 2010-07-20 10:55:20
I also know people in the Police Department. Some who haven't been on very long and they are already looking at other agencies to work for and make more money. They also said they know about 12-15 more Police Officers that are considering other agencies. Just think of the money we spent to train them. Approxiately $150,000.00 a person. So if they just leave our department there is nothing they owe the county for the training. Then they go work for another agency, as already trained Police Officers to make more money. Anne Arundel County needs to step up and become more competitive with the surrounding areas so we don't lose the Officer's and all the money invested in their training.
The Police Department has already given up alot. Sergeants, Lieutenants and above are all being furloughed, no Cost of Living for anyone (COLA), no annual raises, and they all lost allowences for maintance to their uniforms, fitness, and weapon service.
The county just needs to figure out a way to make ends meet. If we lose more Police Officers to different agencies then this county will really be suffering. Like I said earlier, the national average is 2 Police Officers per 1,000 people. Anne Arundel County doesn't even have 1 per 1,000 people. 0.75 per 1,000. If we lose more then the crime will go up and it will be less and less the Police Officer's can do.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Broadneck Resident - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 2
0
Comment removed at writer's request. - 2010-07-20 10:32:24
Why is this comment hidden?
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
8
Public v. Private - 2010-07-20 09:24:59
If I tell my private sector employee that I'm considering going to another company, I may be able to negotiate a better wage before making the decision to leave. These public sector folks can't negotiate for themselves, that's why they need unions! More importantly, I have friends with AA Co. PD and we're only talking about 30 people. At the end of the day this is a small thing that should be done to protect the people that supervise those that protect us.
We must consider BRAC and Slots on the way, we need good decision makers up top and if great candidates don't want the headache because they will make less money, it's You and I, Joe Citizen that will siffer....
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
James Thomas - , - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
9
Union - 2010-07-20 09:13:52
Police Lt's should be allowed to join a union. You can not compare police supervisors to supervisors in private industry. Police supervisors by law are not allowed to strike. Police supervisors unlike those in private industry don't recieve bonuses. There are few if any supervisors in the public sector who get paid less than the people they supervise. If it helps the police department to promote and retain the best officers, provides equity the answer is obvious.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Christina Germann - Deale, md - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
9
Volunteers to Supplement Budget - 2010-07-20 09:05:53
Richard from North Carolina...
The volunteer fire service is a great community tradition in the United States... In fact the Anne Arundel County Fire Department is a combination career and volunteer fire department. The volunteers in this county save the tax-payers alot of money by providing their services and in some cases by providing fire houses and fire apparatus bought with community fund raising and grants.
HOWEVER, here's our fire department...
Currently, our department operates twenty-one (21) Advanced Life Support (ALS) units, nine (9) Basic Life Support units, twenty-eight (28) engine companies, three (3) Quint companies, nine (9) ladder companies and five (5) squad companies. Other segments of the department include; Office of Emergency Management; Fire & EMS Training, Fire Marshal Office, Communications (911 center) and Logistics Division (Vehicle & Facilities Maintenance, SCBA Maintenance, Quartermaster).
The department proudly serves a population in excess of 500,000 residents. Anne Arundel County is one of the most populated jurisdictions in the nation, ranked 114 out of 3,141 Counties in the United States. The Department also provides mutual aid services with the Baltimore Washington International Thurgood Marshall Airport, Baltimore City, Baltimore County, Calvert County, City of Annapolis, Prince Georges County, Queens Anne County on the Eastern Shore, the U.S. Army Post Fort George G. Meade, and the United States Naval Academy.
There is no way our fire department could be an all volunteer operation. It just won't work in the Baltimore/Washington Metro area.
Thanks for the suggestion, though...
Finally, the salaries of our police officers, given the area they work, the cost of living in that area, what they are expected to and be prepared for, and what the Baltimore/Washington Metro market shows, is anything but "bloated".
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Bert Hammerson - Hyattsville, MD - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
12
Bert - 2010-07-20 08:24:56
is a 100% correct you will not find lower taxes in the Baltimore Metro area than AACO. I own a house in Howard and Balto counties, and I can tell you my property taxes here are cheap, Howard $6300.00, Balto Co $4500.00 and these counties provide less services. While we all want to see our fire and police taken care, be careful what you wish for. We are not the highest cost of living in the state.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Pat Magnum - Arnold, MD - Karma: Bad
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 12
1
Police - 2010-07-20 05:45:41
How about this. In thousands of communities across the nation there is exceptional service provided by volunteer fire fighters. Since AA Co. already has a ghost volunteer force in place they should just return the entire department to the volunteers. That way there would be tons of money to pay the bloated union wages of police officers. The communities can purchase their own equipment through fundraisers and federal and state grants. It is done this way in most of the nation.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Richard Martin - Ayden, NC - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 1
11
Police Lieutenants - 2010-07-19 22:18:03
And that Mark M - Millersville, MD is exactly why Unions are still and always will be needed in this country. To protect the working class.As it has always been.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
A Jones - Not naptown but Annapolis, md - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 1
10
Police Lieutenants - 2010-07-19 21:33:32
The Fraternal Order of Police does their best to look after the rank and file officers in the police department. Years and years ago, the lieutenants were coaxed out of the bargaining group (FOP) and told they would be treated like management. These supervisors joined the ranks of the unrepresented and have regretted it ever since.
None of this is the fault of the current Council or Administration but kudos to them for finally trying to fix it.
Even in the most conservative circles, providing for public safety is the primary purpose of any government.
www.fop70.org
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
FOP 70 - Crownsville, MD - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 1
10
Lt. Pay - 2010-07-19 20:52:08
Mark M in Millersville has some facts wrong...
1)Actually, the taxes in A.A. County are anything but rediculously high, in fact you could argue that for the services this DC-Baltimore Metro County provides, the taxes are ridiculously low. The only Maryland counties with a lower County Income Tax are Talbot (rural, not nearly the level of services provided by AA), and Worcester (rural, but with income from Ocean City hotel, amusement, property taxes, etc.). Anne Arundel also has one of the lowest Property Tax Rates, which is legislatively capped.
The other major fact that Mark M has incorrect is that police lieutenants get "scheduled pay increases". That is true for most police agencies in the Washington/Baltimore area, but not in AA County. There is a minimum pay and a maximum pay (not a single lieutenant is making anywhere near the max). But unlike most counties, a yearly increase or "merit step" is not guaranteed. In fact there have been several years (even in fiscally good times) when police officers, corporals, and sergeants received accross the board raises and merit increases while the lieutenants (and higher ranks)did not receive anything, creating a scenario where officers in lower ranks, having less responsibility and having less experience, are being paid higher salaries.
Given these facts, it seems that the lieutenants just want to treatly fairly.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Bert Hammerson - , - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 1
8
Not just Police - 2010-07-19 17:27:44
I also agree that cut's in the Fire Department should not be made. I wish I had an answer on how to please everyone but I just don't. All I'm saying is our Police Department is already streched thin(I don't know about the Fire Department). If you look at the national average, which is 2.5 Police Officers per 1,000 people. Anne Arundel County's average, 0.75 Police Officer's per 1,000 people. Look it up, it was in an archived article about 3 months ago. That statistic alone should scare each and every one of you. You can't just cut the salaries of Police Officers. They won't stick around with this county. I wish I could have the answer on how to make ends meet but I don't.
Maybe other people have some suggestions...
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Broadneck Resident - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
9
Exactly .... - 2010-07-19 16:57:13
Its simple supply and demand. The better officers go to the higher paying departments. Then the county is left with those that other counties such as Baltimore Co and Montgomery don't want. This county is growing and a well trained, capable police department is needed.
And one of the previous posters was right ... most police die within years after they retire because of the constant physical AND mental stress that is placed upon them for years ... and thats a documented fact. These guys and girls deserve every dime (and more) they get.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
J d - deale, MD - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 10
2
information - 2010-07-19 16:31:03
if my information was incorrect, then please direct all questions or criticism to the AACo webmaster.
I am basing my facts on the information that is currently provided under the county police recruiting webpage...
Again, let us know what services you think we should cut to give lieutenants a pay raise...
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Mark M - MIllersville, MD - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 0
8
Lt. Pay - 2010-07-19 16:16:30
It seems to me that if the county took care of those running the police department like the Lt's then they would be making more than those below them. Why would you be the boss if those under you make more? Unions are formed when a group of people are not being treated fairly.... My suggestion is to treat the Lt's well and they wont want to be in a union. Mark M really needs to think about what he is saying. No other departments can't take ever single officer, THEY WILL JUST TAKE THE BEST ONES. It happened in Annapolis for years until police wages/benefits were raised to the point the best officers stayed.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Mike Morris - Annapolis, MD - Karma: Neutral
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 1
8
Try It first - 2010-07-19 16:16:07
They can retire after 20 years but most don't since if they do, their retirement doesn't keep pace with inflation and soon they will go broke. Besides, most don't live more than about 10-15 years after they retire due to the stresses of what they see and endure, their constantly alternating schedule and their frazzled emotions.
Their scheduled salary increases have been shelved the last few years (check the Capital) and that 'company' car? That means they're on 'company' time and have to stop for every fool who flags them down. Plus, wanna have your family in a car that some dirty slimeball who urinated on himself has just sat in? Nah - I'll keep my own car thanks and thank my neighbor once again for putting up with the trashman duties he's forced to endure.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
M Young - Crownsville, MD - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 10
4
balance the departments budget - 2010-07-19 15:55:54
Just because other counties pay that much, doesnt mean THIS county needs to. Where does the money come from? Taxpayers. And IM sure we both can agree our taxes are already ridiculously high. Where should we pull the money from to give all lieutenants a pay raise? What government services should we cut to free up these funds? If you take a little from the larger field of entry level "beat officers" then you get your balance for the lieutenants.
Medical, dental, vision, pension after TWENTY years... SCHEDULED salary increases...
A "company car"...
Many folks in the private sector don't have it nearly as good...
Im sure those other counties are very competitive in their recruiting classes... but they cant hire EVERY officer that wants to leave AACo for greener pastures.
Yes.. this is a vital service... as are firefighters... as are school bus drivers, garbagemen, teachers, utility workers... Again, which of these services should we take money away from to give the police more??
The police should look within their own department before trying to get more out of the county. Frankly, its ridiculous, and should be an embarrassment for the department that this situation even exists.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Mark M - MIllersville, MD - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 1
9
Salaries - 2010-07-19 14:34:39
http://bit.ly/9UNa7M - Montgomery County
http://www.co.ho.md.us/Police/Docs/porecruitmentflyer.pdf - Howard County
http://www.baltimorecountymd.gov/Agencies/police/careers/about.html - Baltimore County
As I said earlier. We are the highest cost of living county to live in. Yet, the Police Officers (who protect you and I) make at least $5,000.00 less than the surrounding areas. Also, you can't ban a Public Sector Union. The Fraternal Order of Police is a National Labor Union.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Brandon Williams - , - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 10
5
think twice... - 2010-07-19 14:05:11
you can see the Police Salary scale on the county site here:
http://www.aacounty.org/Personnel/JobDescriptions/PD_Promo.cfm
looks like P.O. first class does pretty well... considering the minimum requirement is a high school diploma... In this economy they should be happy they're making that.
I agree with David...
Public Sector Unions should definitely be banned.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Mark M - MIllersville, MD - Karma: Excellent
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 3
11
Cut Pay? - 2010-07-19 13:24:04
How could you even suggest cutting the pay of Police Officers? Anne Arundel County is one of the lowest paying counties in the State of Maryland. Yet, we're also one of the most expensive counties to live in. It would scare you if you really knew how short handed the Police Department really is. Keep cutting pay then you will see more and more Police Officers transfer to other departments. Then we will be unable to hire new Police Officers becuase no one will work for such little pay. Just think about next time you suggest to, "cut the pay of the officers." They're people too. Guys and gals who have to pay a mortgage, and provide for their family.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
Brandon Williams - , - Karma: Good
Report Abuse or Vote In order to allow the user community the ability to collectively rank the value of comments posted on the Capital Gazette websites we have implemented a thumbs-up/down system. All logged-in users may participate by voting up/down each comment. If others vote on your comment, your individual score will go up/down depending on the votes. Initially, everyone starts with a score of zero, and must earn credits to have significant voting weight. Individuals with higher scores will have more voting weight. 12
4
Management/Union - 2010-07-19 12:53:54
So now management wants to unionize? Public Sector Unions should be banned not expanded. If officers are making more than their supervisors it is time to cut the pay of the officers.
unhide Comment hidden due to low ranking. Why is this comment hidden?
David Kyle - Pasadena, MD - Karma: Neutral
If you encounter other problems, please email nlundskow@capitalgazette.com and include your name, username, and any errors or messages that are displayed. The more information you can provide, the better able we will be to assist you.